5E The Thug, A Subclass for Strength Rogues - Page 8
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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonCross View Post
    So what of that can't be achieve by role playing fighter or barbarian as thug? What does the Rogue class offer as Strength based design like this that makes it the choice for this subclass?
    Off the top of my head: the focus on skills rather than combat training or intense bursts of power. Whether Social climbing, sneaking, actual climbing, knowing stuff, the Rogue has not only a broader skill base, but a much more capable one.
    Again, that's why I keep referring to the rogue class as a group of features. What detracts from this if the athletic criminal is based on the barbarian or fighter features? Why rogue? Does this not also step on the toes of those classes since they exist to fill that void? Being a criminal is not class specific and could be applied to any class.
    Why play a dex-based fighter? Does that not step on toes?
    - Presumably you pick Fighter rather than Rogue for the combat prowess of the base class, in the same way a strength-based rogue picked rogue due to the skill capabilities of the base rogue chassis.

    So they are taking a dex tax due to insufficient armor? I mean I don't generally see strength Barbarians or Fighters with high dex too. What is it that provokes this design as a Rogue with a dex tax instead of Fighter or Barbarian without one? Even if we disregard the skills not needing dex, is their anything that supports strength like Barbarians rage?
    There is a distinction between not having a high stat, and dumping a stat. A lot of barbarians, and a few fighters I've seen have 12-14 Dex. Even for fighters in heavy armour, Dex is good for a lot of reasons other than AC.
    There is no "even" about disregarding skills not needing Dex. Skills commonly paired with Dex are in the minority in the rogue's list. In terms of directly boosting Strength-based ability, a rogue's use of Athletics, whether for climbing, running, and other typical rogue uses, or for shoving people around in combat are directly supported by several features of the Rogue class.

    What makes this good as a rogue build. Is it just "because" and if so does that mean its stuck on this idea of the rogue feature package name?

    1. There is nothing in rules that prevents a fighter or Barbarian from being a strength based criminal thug with these features.What makes them better on even as good as a rogue?
    They're much better in combat, being tougher, less restricted, and having greater capabilities.
    But they're nowhere near as good when it comes to versatility out of combat and skill use. - I'm guessing it depends on what you mean by "better".

    2. If they are not as better on a rogue why is it important mechanically or in role play to tie this subclass to rogue features?
    Because you want to play a tricky, skillful character who gets by in combat through dirty fighting rather than being an outright combat monster.
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  2. #72
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    I have been following this thread, but not posted since I keep coming back to just have a fighter with criminal background or such. I'll try to offer some constructive feedback though. I'm trying to figure out the flavor of the class to see what you are after. Is it a rogue that fights? A fighter with thief abilities? Maybe a bouncer-type in a tavern or some muscle in a guild. Which may be why I keep coming back to just having a fighter.

    I like some of the ideas about having a bonus action to make a 2nd attack. I would not want to see it 5th level though and also not at 17th since many games do not reach that high. I would make it at 9th level or give some sort of 1/rest ability to do that. I would also like to keep skills like rogues have so something where they can gain advantage may help or having something where they can distract or block terrain in the movies where people being chased knock over carts or baskets. An ability where they move their opponent, maybe through a opposing check. There could also be the basic expertise at 6th level like normal rogues get and most may apply it other skills like Athletics or such.

    I always liked classes that were half one class and half another, but most of the time it had the best parts of both classes. A fighter-thief type with 2 attacks at 5th level and full backstab dice may be one I have seen, or full spells and full backstab. It is hard to not take away from the original classes while making a class be good in their own way.
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  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold Stew View Post
    ..snip.. The fighter is the pre-eminent nonmagical warrior. Knows weapons and armour The barbarian is fuelled by the rage mechanism. The rouge is defined by skills -- not by combat.

    If I don't want to play a professional warrior, then rogue is my only option.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cap'n Kobold View Post
    ..snip..
    - Presumably you pick Fighter rather than Rogue for the combat prowess of the base class, in the same way a strength-based rogue picked rogue due to the skill capabilities of the base rogue chassis.

    ..snip..
    <in regards to fighters/barbarians over rogues>
    They're much better in combat, being tougher, less restricted, and having greater capabilities.
    But they're nowhere near as good when it comes to versatility out of combat and skill use. - I'm guessing it depends on what you mean by "better".

    Because you want to play a tricky, skillful character who gets by in combat through dirty fighting rather than being an outright combat monster.
    I think this is were it strikes me most. To me, a Thug is more a professional fighter (aka warrior) than defined by skills. That said backstab is more of skilled assassin shot than a fighter. So I actually played a rogue archer as a sniper which is a skilled warrior and mechanically very much suites the rogue feature set. Fighters are less "skilled" doing less damage per hit but overwhelming with multiple attacks. Barbarians raging is also a path of over whelming an opponent with brute force. The grappler design, of this subclass seems like an overwhelming force which fits the fighter or barbarian better... In my opinion, based on the fighter being able to use shove on the first attack and then attack the knocked down opponent multiple times and Barbarian being able to do the same thing with advantage on the shove from rage and only one additional attack. However, I am not against the strength rogue. I just feel like the design went the wrong way by choosing to follow grapple because its a base mechanic which these other two already make good use off. It would even make more since to make a grappler monk as they are a hand to hand martial class.


    I don't have a problem "Dirty work" by its self its a strong but not broken ability the with the melee weapons add to backstab. It just makes since for the design as does the medium armor proficiency.

    I think the "Coercive Presence" fear ability is a step in the right direction, because it effects the group in a very gang mentality thuggish ability that plays to a skill and intimidation + expertise + reliable talent granting fear suites the rogue class features. The "This effect ends if you take damage, if you become incapacitated, frightened, or restrained, or if you and the target are more than 30 feet apart" restraint means its not at all to powerful. Its a good way to coarse and be a thug before or out of combat in the vein of what both of you said was key to a rogue.

    Manhandle and Cheap shot are where the class does too far to being a grappling fighter/barbarian and lose its attachment to rogue as skill based class or one hit assassin, instead leaning into skill less strength brutes. I would like the class to lean into other skill abilities if its going to be rogue. Like "Coercive Presence" fear, perhaps a skill based on deception "there is no where you can hide that I can't find you" or "I know your holding out on me, your shorting me and your going to regret it." When you really don't know. Its also good for dealing with guards, "What do you mean I'm steeling his money!?!? I gave him a loan I am just here to collect". You can do that with deception already. But my point is having intimidation (charisma) has already made it a good idea to pump strength and charisma so it let the strength be your combat stat, medium armor, encumbrance, and grapple which you can already pump with feats and expertise if you want to go that route. Then do another charisma skill bases ability and add a combat twist to it.

    Example (it's going to be bad I am winging it, just for example) Double agent, you gain advantage on deception (charisma) attempts to convince enemies your own their side of a conflict if they haven't previously meet you and your not standing with your party. Additionally, If you enter combat separate from your party, an enemy has to make an insight (wisdom) test versus your deception (charisma) to realize you are with your part of the group they are fighting. On failure, you are not considered hostile to them. When you attack a target to which you are considered hostile it is treated as surprised and you make the attack with advantage. Once, you have attacked an enemy or been seen attacking the ally of an enemy they become hostile and are immune to this effect.

    Not a great example, but its kind of the "it wasn't me, I am not with them denial" so a stronger opponent as opposed to the Coercive Presence intimidation, which lets the same character adapt to different situations. I also feel like pretending your on the other side of a fight blackjacking the back of someones head who thinks your on their side is pretty thuggish.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonCross View Post
    I think this is were it strikes me most. To me, a Thug is more a professional fighter (aka warrior) than defined by skills.
    Is it the name causing that conceptual dissonance? Would calling the subclass the Bully or something similar that implies dirty fighting after using skills to be in an advantageous position.

    That said backstab is more of skilled assassin shot than a fighter. So I actually played a rogue archer as a sniper which is a skilled warrior and mechanically very much suites the rogue feature set. Fighters are less "skilled" doing less damage per hit but overwhelming with multiple attacks. Barbarians raging is also a path of over whelming an opponent with brute force.
    That would be a valid interpretation of sneak attack, and one that fits quite well with the Thug subclass.

    The grappler design, of this subclass seems like an overwhelming force which fits the fighter or barbarian better...
    Fighters are not the only class that might practice nonmagical martial arts. The shove + attack routine could be anything from sweeping the leg then following up with a whack while they're down as part of a single technique to simply flipping someone into the ground head-first.

    Manhandle and Cheap shot are where the class does too far to being a grappling fighter/barbarian and lose its attachment to rogue as skill based class or one hit assassin, instead leaning into skill less strength brutes.
    That "skill-less" part of your comment is interesting seeing as both of those abilities directly key off use of a skill.

    Out of interest, how do you feel about Swashbucklers? They would seem to have much more in common to fighters in terms of attitude and concept than this Brute subclass does.
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