D&D 5E D&D Promises to Make the Game More Queer

Morrus · Aug 26, 2017

D&D Promises to Make the Game More Queer

FrogReaver said:
Why exactly can't we ignore you when your not talking as a mod? That would be a nice feature.

It’s a tough life.

Yunru · Aug 26, 2017

Ganymede81 said:
This is an irrational prediction.

Do you honestly believe that, despite the fact that CoS has contradicted this prediction at every turn, WOTC is going to start populating its adventures with characters that serve no other purpose than to be gay?

People worry about weird stuff.

As I said, maybe I'm just jaded. But if stuff like CoS wasn't considered "enough" what's the "more" they're going to add: quantity, or intensity?

Morrus · Aug 26, 2017

FrogReaver said:
Heterosexuals don't go around announcing to the world that they are heterosexual.

Yes, they do.

Kryx · Aug 26, 2017

Yunru said:
That's not homophobia. Nothing about it's homophobic. Nothing about it was corrrect either, but not homophobic.

Perhaps you have missed his posts full of his hateful homophobia:

FrogReaver said:
Good start! See we don't have to announce our sexuality to the world. So why is suggesting that gays don't announce their sexuality to the world suddenly insulting?

FrogReaver said:
I don't go around telling people I'm straight. I don't know hardly any straight male that does. Why gay men have to tell everyone they are gay?

FrogReaver said:
(If they get their gay man in D&D just because gays exist then I wanna see some official KKK ideology support because those people exist too. All for inclusion right? TIC of course, but I think it highlights the point)

He literally compares people who want to live their lives to people whose sole ideology is hating other people.. This person is full of hate and not very subtle about it.

Yunru · Aug 26, 2017

Kryx said:
Perhaps you have missed his posts full of his hateful homophobia:

He literally compares people who want to live their lives to people whose sole ideology is hating other people.. This person is full of hate and not very subtle about it.

Eh, you have me on that last quote.

Kryx · Aug 26, 2017

FrogReaver said:
Heterosexuals don't go around announcing to the world that they are heterosexual.

Are you sure they don't? Because you did earlier in this conversation:

FrogReaver said:
I don't go around telling people I'm straight.

Your lack of awareness is astounding.

FrogReaver · Aug 26, 2017

MechaPilot said:
I know you've been having a heated discussion with another poster, but please try to remember I'm not Shidaku.

I did say "I can't entirely blame them," and not "I can't blame them at all." Everyone has influences on their life that affect them, even if only subconsciously. I can't blame people for having those influences. But, we should all endeavor to be better people, to rise above our biases and try to treat people the way we would like to be treated. That means occasionally examining what we think, say, and do, and challenging our own preconceived notions. Sometimes, it takes others pointing out (preferably with some tact and decorum) a behaviour of ours to make us see influences and preconceived notions we weren't previously aware of.

A brief pause, an awkward silence that feels quite like eternity, instigated because my character is similar to how I am. Yeah, each and every time it makes me feel judged, as if this fact about me that's beyond my control somehow says something distasteful about me and the quality of my personal character. But, I've played a lot of RPGs, and it's come up enough that I've pretty much gotten used to it, sort of like getting used to a recurring headache.

Sure, we're playing a game together. That doesn't mean we have the same ideals about everything. I had a friend I played D&D (and Robotech) with turn skinhead on me. As long as he didn't bring that racist crap to the table I was fine with him being there (and, on retrospect, I'm glad I was. I think I provided him with a place where he could be around others who were different but friendly, a nice contrast to all that skinhead baggage and indoctrination). I did eventually have to ask him to leave when he couldn't abide by leaving the skinhead crap at the door.

It's a shame he went down that road, and that I couldn't influence him away from it. Before he got caught up in all that trash, he was a pretty good friend.

It's happened more than once, substantially. The games I play in don't shy away from sexuality. We don't go into details about the PCs engaging in sex, or anything like that, but we do see romance & sexuality as part of the "whole package" of the human (elf, dwarf, etc) experience.

As to the outcomes, there were times when the DM had gone along with it, and there were times when they didn't. Which is fine. I don't expect every NPC a character hits on to be interested in that character, regardless of whether it's my character or not, and regardless of whether the reason is the NPC's sexuality or some other factor (for example, I could easily see my Tiefling PC being rejected by another girl based on opinions about her fiendish lineage).

I won't say I'm not sensitive to the issue. I don't think I'm hypersensitive about it, but there is a measure of sensitivity there, sure. As far as reading more into their actions than are actually there, that is a mistake I have made in the past (I'm sure we've all made that mistake at some point), but not in this case. As I said, I actually asked them about it. The pause was not a matter of the DM trying to recall "was there anything in the NPC's description that makes it inconsistent for her to be gay?" It literally was a matter of "Is it appropriate for this barmaid (who was just made up on the spot and not described in the published adventure) to be gay?"

Any person who engages in public displays of affection is, effectively, telling everyone who can see them what their sexuality is. Not that I think that's a problem, but there is a big double standard in society about homosexuals "flaunting" or "shoving their sexuality in people's faces" by holding hands, hugging, or kissing in public when straight couples get an automatic pass on that. I'm also not saying you engage in that double standard, I'm just reminding you that it exists.

Thanks for sharing. Very good stories. Probably the most fascinating is your skinhead story. That's pretty amazing especially on your part as well and I firmly believe it was the right thing to do. It may make a difference in his life at some point... or not. But at least it has a chance to.

The public displays of affection is a thing. There is a different reaction to hetero people and homo people doing it. Just curious. Are gay people bothered by hetero public displays of affection? I mean besides the full all out get a hotel room type stuff that other heterosexual people typically don't even tolerate?

Because there is a difference if homo people are not bothered by hetero displays of affection but hetero people are bothered by homo displays of affection then that double standard isn't really a double standard anymore. Oh sure if you try to frame it as hetero vs homo you may can make that point but it's not. It's about each groups comfort level with the other and that's where the differences lie.

FrogReaver · Aug 26, 2017

Kryx said:
Perhaps you have missed his posts full of his hateful homophobia:

He literally compares people who want to live their lives to people whose sole ideology is hating other people.. This person is full of hate and not very subtle about it.

Point went way overhead. Typical really I guess...

Ganymede81 · Aug 26, 2017

Yunru said:
As I said, maybe I'm just jaded. But if stuff like CoS wasn't considered "enough" what's the "more" they're going to add: quantity, or intensity?

The article in the first post makes it clear that CoS IS illustrative of the model WOTC is following when it comes to GLBT inclusion in their published material. The balance struck in CoS, continued in SKT, and to be shown in ToA, is their end-goal for inclusion.

There is no indication whatsoever in the article that Crawford thought CoS wasn't "enough."

I reiterate: based on all available evidence, your worry is irrational.

EDIT: Ok, I think you might have been misled by the title of the thread/article. Just to clarify, the cut-off point for this "more queer" D&D is pre-CoS, the point in which adventure design went back in-house.

Teemu · Aug 26, 2017

FrogReaver said:
Heterosexuals announce to a potential partner their interest by hitting on them. Obviously if you hit on a member of the opposite sex it can be inferred you are heterosexual or bi but the purpose of the hit on was not to let them know you are heterosexual or bi but to let them know you are interested.

Heterosexuals don't go around announcing to the world that they are heterosexual. They announce they are interested in a specific individual and by doing that their sexuality can be inferred. If you don't get that difference then something is wrong...

So, it's pretty much true that heterosexual people almost never make, say, Facebook posts specifically announcing that they're heterosexual or in a heterosexual relationship, or they don't go on public marches whose main purpose is to let everyone know, "I'm straight!" (Referencing Gay Pride marches.)

But the reason why many homosexual and bisexual people do do it is simple: they announce that they are not ashamed of their sexual orientation. This is the key difference.

When you're bi or gay, growing up the society around you subtly (or less subtly) teaches you that homosexuality is wrong, or at least kind of wrong (depends on your location). There are tons of adult homosexual men and women who hide their sexual orientation from other people because they carry that shame inside them. Heterosexual people don't -- or when was the last time you met a 30-year old man who couldn't tell his family, friends, and co-workers that they liked women, both sexually and romantically? Is it common for opposite sex couples to hide their relationship from family and colleagues in fear of rejection?

Homosexual and bisexual people go through a process of learning to accept their sexuality, and for many, part of that is telling people that they're gay/lesbian/bi. Straight people don't have to go through that (sometimes painful) process, because they're not ashamed of being heterosexual.