The Fundamental Patterns Of War - Page 2
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  1. #11
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    Yes, there are many ways to introduce uncertainty in games. I've had a Stratego-like game published, and a block game on preorder at Worthington Publishing, for example. I didn't say you cannot introduce uncertainty into commercial games, I said that many hard-core gamers want to feel that they're in control of their fate, and dislike uncertainty. Many video gamers dislike any kind of "dice roll" in their games. I myself used to say, 40-some years ago, "I hate dice games." (My favorite was Diplomacy.) Then I encountered D&D . . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by lewpuls View Post
    Yes, there are many ways to introduce uncertainty in games. I've had a Stratego-like game published, and a block game on preorder at Worthington Publishing, for example. I didn't say you cannot introduce uncertainty into commercial games, I said that many hard-core gamers want to feel that they're in control of their fate, and dislike uncertainty. Many video gamers dislike any kind of "dice roll" in their games. I myself used to say, 40-some years ago, "I hate dice games." (My favorite was Diplomacy.) Then I encountered D&D . . .
    Hi, hard core wargamer here. I love uncertainty in games. They're what make the game about playing your opponent and not just their pawns. And, given how prevalent uncertainty mechanics are in many strategy games, I'm certainly not alone.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by lewpuls View Post
    Yes, there are many ways to introduce uncertainty in games. I've had a Stratego-like game published, and a block game on preorder at Worthington Publishing, for example. I didn't say you cannot introduce uncertainty into commercial games, I said that many hard-core gamers want to feel that they're in control of their fate, and dislike uncertainty. Many video gamers dislike any kind of "dice roll" in their games. I myself used to say, 40-some years ago, "I hate dice games." (My favorite was Diplomacy.) Then I encountered D&D . . .
    E-sports gamers dont like rng in their games, as they prefer them to be contests of skill and teamwork, but those games tend to be MOBA these days, rather than traditional RTS.

    Outside of esports, every strategy and war game ive played has incorporated uncertainty, either the minimal mutual uncertainty of a dice roll, or the more substantial uncertainty of abilities, units, maps or objectives which are not public information.

    Even in games like chess or go, where the entire game state is public information, player intentions, and how a move will be followed up later, are still uncertain, and leveraging uncertainty is necessary for winning.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Linke View Post
    E-sports gamers dont like rng in their games, as they prefer them to be contests of skill and teamwork, but those games tend to be MOBA these days, rather than traditional RTS.

    Outside of esports, every strategy and war game ive played has incorporated uncertainty, either the minimal mutual uncertainty of a dice roll, or the more substantial uncertainty of abilities, units, maps or objectives which are not public information.

    Even in games like chess or go, where the entire game state is public information, player intentions, and how a move will be followed up later, are still uncertain, and leveraging uncertainty is necessary for winning.
    To follow-up on the chess bit, part of a well played game is obfuscating your play successfully.

    And, to clarify, when I sponge of uncertainty I meant incomplete our unreliable information, not uncertain resolution mechanics. Uncertainty in what's currently happening, not uncertainty in how a resolution mechanic will resolve.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Ovinomancer View Post
    To follow-up on the chess bit, part of a well played game is obfuscating your play successfully.

    And, to clarify, when I sponge of uncertainty I meant incomplete our unreliable information, not uncertain resolution mechanics. Uncertainty in what's currently happening, not uncertainty in how a resolution mechanic will resolve.

    And to your point, incomplete information, and therefor uncertainty, is a MAJOR factor in esports games where resolution isnt uncertain.

    I think the author is pretty well accurate for every point except this mischaracterization of uncertainty in Gaming. Its a fundamental part of good game design. Its even a fundamental part of mediocre game design.
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Linke View Post
    Even in games like chess or go, where the entire game state is public information, player intentions, and how a move will be followed up later, are still uncertain, and leveraging uncertainty is necessary for winning.
    In puzzles such as chess (and any other so-called "game" that is two player and perfect information), you can assume your opponent is a perfect player, and play accordingly. If the opponent is not perfect, you'll gain. This is maximizing your minimum gain, which is the basis of the Mathematical Theory of Games.

    This is no different in principle than Tic-Tac-Toe, which as you all know is a draw when played perfectly. The difference is that chess is so complex that no human can solve it, though we can solve cut-down versions of chess (chess problems). Checkers is much less complex, such that Marion Tinsley more or less solved it. Checkers has also been brute-forced solved by the Chinook program (as I understand it, a database of all possible positions and the move that is most likely to result in a win from each position).

    When you have more than two players, then uncertainty of player intention comes into it. (I think! Certainly practically.)

    It has been demonstrated that a perfectly played game of chess will always end the same way, but the demonstration doesn't show whether that's a white win, black win, or draw.

    You might say, player intention only matters when players make mistakes.

    Uncertainty is NECESSARY to a game, otherwise you have a puzzle with an always-correct solution (even if humans cannot figure out that solution). Nonetheless, a great many hardcore gamers dislike a lot of uncertainty - notice the popularity of games such as chess, go, checkers, and other abstracts. An RPG forum would be atypical of hardcore gamers as a whole, of course. (And note, video gamers far outnumber RPGers - RPGs are a fairly small segment of gaming.)

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by lewpuls View Post
    Uncertainty is NECESSARY to a game, otherwise you have a puzzle with an always-correct solution (even if humans cannot figure out that solution). Nonetheless, a great many hardcore gamers dislike a lot of uncertainty - notice the popularity of games such as chess, go, checkers, and other abstracts.
    And a great many other hardcore gamers prefer a level of unpredictability in their games - notice the popularity of poker, blackjack and other card games.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkB View Post
    And a great many other hardcore gamers prefer a level of unpredictability in their games - notice the popularity of poker, blackjack and other card games.
    Some unpredictability is welcomed as long as it hurts each player equally over time. In a wargame an unlucky/lucky roll can remove a valuable unit and a large part is about devoting the right amount of resources to deal with a problem, but in practice can be a bit 'swingy' - one player gets lucky so its a good idea to push that advantage to generate more and then steamroller. After being stung a bit too much by the whimsy dice I've tended to prefer games like magic or pokemon where have an inherent level of uncertainty (60 cards) but give you some control (you choose the cards), eventually, if you draw enough cards, you will find the card you need!

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