D&D 5E Mearls' "Firing" tweet

[MENTION=8713]Afrodyte[/MENTION] - thanks for contributing. Posts like yours made the slog through this interminable thread rewarding

Flexor the Mighty! said:

Its part of the wonders of America! All kinds of scum get to speak, Marxists, Nazis, fans of gnome paladins, etc.

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Well yes, but I'm talking about the difference between having the right of speaking out, and gnome paladins becoming as well of an accepted and popular stance as human fighters

I suspect that one of the factors contributing to Mike's aggravation was personal indignation. I mean, they posted a job, reviewed the applicants, and selected the one they thought was best for the position based on whatever criteria they were looking for. Then, along comes "the internet" and appoints itself to do an audit and review of that hiring decision.

I think if I were in his position, I might be asking the internet, "Just who the [fornicate] do you think you are?"

redrick said:

You might not think it's sexist. I do. And when I showed some of the posts on her hiring forum to my wife, like the one where a poster pasted in the entire job posting and encouraged people to "judge her qualifications for themselves," she was appalled. Well, not exactly appalled, because, "what do you expect from those people?" but it definitely read as unqualified sexism. Not to mention that several posters went further and specifically claimed that her gender and appearance were her only qualifications.

When I read the accounts of women and harassment in the workplace, one of the first things that gets highlighted is the endless interrogation about one's qualifications from everybody. It's a pattern of hostility that women face. This is has been elaborated on in great detail upthread. So, maybe some of the people interrogating her qualifications don't have a shred of bias in anything they do, ever. They take a long hard look at every Wizards hire, dig up the original job posting, make wild speculations about the persons' qualifications based on limited knowledge (yeah, ok, we know she plays D&D a lot, but I've never seen a podcast of her DM'ing, so that means it must not happen!), regardless of gender. Good on them? I guess? Or, maybe, that person could appreciate the repercussions of needlessly hounding a woman about her qualifications and, armed with that knowledge, behave differently. Just because the behavior wasn't meant with hostility doesn't mean it doesn't have the effect of hostile behavior.

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I hear what you're saying, and yes that could be an indication of sexism (unnoticed by the person doing it). However, I would think that a major influence for people now checking her qualifications could stem simply from the amount of clamor being generated, and it just being a case of idle curiosity. Kinda like how everyone likes to slow down on the road to look at the fender bender that just happened to see what's going on.

*Deleted by user*

What was Mearls thinking?

This is one of the worst societal conflicts in recent history. Both sides are openly engaged in a holy war with each other and actively harass each other, to the point of ruining lives and sometimes driving each other to suicide.

Mr. Mearls, if you are reading this, consider how big of a mistake you just made. The first rule of the net is "Don't feed the trolls." And you just opened a buffet the size of Jupiter for them. Please, for the love of Gygax, turn out to have been drunk or something. Or just lie and say you were. The very stance you have taken is the one taken by Ghostbusters, Marvel, and dozens of others. The hostility toward fan base never works out. Just get out of the conflict and wait until the trolls get bored and go away.

And if you cannot, please leave WotC. I am a big fan of your work. But if you cannot control your temper with a fanbase that has always been full of vitriol and keep EnD in a fight where both sides now have reason to hate the franchise, then it is best you move on before you destroy the game.

By the way, I am interested to see what your new hire contributes. But I have reservations, just as I would if she were a man.

redrick said:

You might not think it's sexist. I do. And when I showed some of the posts on her hiring forum to my wife, like the one where a poster pasted in the entire job posting and encouraged people to "judge her qualifications for themselves," she was appalled. Well, not exactly appalled, because, "what do you expect from those people?" but it definitely read as unqualified sexism. Not to mention that several posters went further and specifically claimed that her gender and appearance were her only qualifications.

When I read the accounts of women and harassment in the workplace, one of the first things that gets highlighted is the endless interrogation about one's qualifications from everybody. It's a pattern of hostility that women face. This is has been elaborated on in great detail upthread. So, maybe some of the people interrogating her qualifications don't have a shred of bias in anything they do, ever. They take a long hard look at every Wizards hire, dig up the original job posting, make wild speculations about the persons' qualifications based on limited knowledge (yeah, ok, we know she plays D&D a lot, but I've never seen a podcast of her DM'ing, so that means it must not happen!), regardless of gender. Good on them? I guess? Or, maybe, that person could appreciate the repercussions of needlessly hounding a woman about her qualifications and, armed with that knowledge, behave differently. Just because the behavior wasn't meant with hostility doesn't mean it doesn't have the effect of hostile behavior.

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It varies as to whether or not it is sexism. In a lot of cases, nmen get exactly the same treatment. So, to call it unqualified sexism reveals the prejudices about being questioned of those who hold the view, and in my experience typical of those who are not open to actual dialogue on the issue, even when the dialogue is from the same side of the divide.

redrick said:

You might not think it's sexist. I do. And when I showed some of the posts on her hiring forum to my wife, like the one where a poster pasted in the entire job posting and encouraged people to "judge her qualifications for themselves," she was appalled. Well, not exactly appalled, because, "what do you expect from those people?" but it definitely read as unqualified sexism. Not to mention that several posters went further and specifically claimed that her gender and appearance were her only qualifications.

When I read the accounts of women and harassment in the workplace, one of the first things that gets highlighted is the endless interrogation about one's qualifications from everybody. It's a pattern of hostility that women face. This is has been elaborated on in great detail upthread. So, maybe some of the people interrogating her qualifications don't have a shred of bias in anything they do, ever. They take a long hard look at every Wizards hire, dig up the original job posting, make wild speculations about the persons' qualifications based on limited knowledge (yeah, ok, we know she plays D&D a lot, but I've never seen a podcast of her DM'ing, so that means it must not happen!), regardless of gender. Good on them? I guess? Or, maybe, that person could appreciate the repercussions of needlessly hounding a woman about her qualifications and, armed with that knowledge, behave differently. Just because the behavior wasn't meant with hostility doesn't mean it doesn't have the effect of hostile behavior.

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I'm not claiming that some of the criticism has not been sexist and there are plenty of trolls etc floating around online. I'm not the one in charge of hiring at wotc but generally I would look for.

1. Previous work on a D&D product, freelance or otherwise.
2. Previous work on a D&D clone, Pathfinder, OSR, freelance or otherwise
3. Design credits on another RPG.

WoTC are probably in a position where they can more or less pick and choose who they hire and I suspect expectations are kind of high since they should have money from 5E as we keep hearing about how well its doing, and they have hired very few people in recent years.

. Personally I don't watch any of the you tube D&D streams and are only vaguely aware of things like Critical Role but know things like that are important now so that alone could justify hiring her. Its not like they are going to throw her in the deep end and have her put out the next Xanathars book or get her to design 6E or whatever.

In the good old days people got hired at TSR for being friends with Gygax basically by being in his play group. D&D work can be more like an art form though and there is no qualification as such for working on the material, the best authors have a track record of good design so I don't think we will know one way or the other for a while.

For every D&D author you have heard of or are familiar with there are probably at least 10 you have not heard of and that is not counting freelancers, 3pp, and other independents.

Zardnaar said:

I don't think its sexist to wonder about her qualifications when she has not actually worked on any D&D related RPGs in any major capacity. Designing RPGs is more of an art form though and its not like all of TSR's hires were actually experienced D&Der's either but they had worked on other RPGs (well some of them had probably not all). Gygax is also another example, he could write an adventure, maybe not the best at writing an actual rulebook but he gets a free pass as he invented the genre.

Personally I do not know much about her, don't really care one way or the other, either way let her work speak for itself maybe she will go on to get major design credits in a D&D book or leave in 2 years time I have no idea. In the good old days TSR employed people via Dragon and/or Dungeon work, I think Mearls got int via 3pp first then Dungeon then ground floor. He was also one of the last to have that option/path as the Magazines have been out of print now for 10 years.

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Honestly, I will also cop to initially questioning her qualifications and hiring.

First, because she has played with Chris Perkins in the Acquisitions Incorporated stream and is thus a friend of a friend. There is the hint of nepotism.
But I like to *believe* I'd also think this if they hired someone like Jerry Holkins or Jared Knabenbauer.

Second, because WotC is the biggest name in the industry, you'd expect them to hire someone with LOTS of qualifications. Someone with a wealth of freelance credits and their name in a dozen books and multiple products for sale on the DMsGuild. I expected to know the past work of the new hire. To be able to go through their catalogue of work. Someone without even an AL credit was a surprise. (Especially when her past projects were listed here and writing wasn't listed.)
Again, I want to believe this isn't a reflection of gender. When Paizo hired Crystal Frasier and Amanda Hamon Kunz I never batted an eye (beyond the "Wait… Crystal Frasier doesn't already work for Paizo? How many credits does she have again??")

When Ms. Welch reminded people she has been working as a game designer for the past seven years and was an experienced writer, that partially put my mind to ease. 50% of the doubt evaporated. Really, the big skill needed is being able to compose a coherent sentence.

Then I remembered that game design in 5e is an iterative process based with designers & developers plus playtesters and that she'd be working with the creators of the game. And the remaining doubt faded. Good ideas are more important than good mechanics, as the later will been done collaboratively. After six months of behind-the-curtain advice, she'll probably be a better 5e game designer than someone who has been homebrewing since the books dropped.
(Ditto lore. I have no idea how much D&D she knows. But that wasn't much of a concern as WotC literally has someone whose job is wrangling lore. So no concerns there.)

I don't think having doubts is inherently sexist.
But continuing to have strong doubts after being reassured or the irrelevance of the concerns is pointed out suggests at another factor at play....

ArchfiendBobbie said:

What was Mearls thinking?

This is one of the worst societal conflicts in recent history. Both sides are openly engaged in a holy war with each other and actively harass each other, to the point of ruining lives and sometimes driving each other to suicide.

Mr. Mearls, if you are reading this, consider how big of a mistake you just made. The first rule of the net is "Don't feed the trolls." And you just opened a buffet the size of Jupiter for them. Please, for the love of Gygax, turn out to have been drunk or something. Or just lie and say you were. The very stance you have taken is the one taken by Ghostbusters, Marvel, and dozens of others. The hostility toward fan base never works out. Just get out of the conflict and wait until the trolls get bored and go away.

And if you cannot, please leave WotC. I am a big fan of your work. But if you cannot control your temper with a fanbase that has always been full of vitriol and keep EnD in a fight where both sides now have reason to hate the franchise, then it is best you move on before you destroy the game.

By the way, I am interested to see what your new hire contributes. But I have reservations, just as I would if she were a man.

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You're implying a moral equivalence between the harassing misogynistic gatekeepers he's referring to, and the people who think harassing misogynistic gatekeepers suck.

And what he's thinking is probably, "hey the D&D community would be healthier and better off without those folks."

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