D&D 5E Mearls' "Firing" tweet

Obryn · Jan 26, 2018

Shasarak said:
We can have a well functioning society with maximal levels of intolerance. Happens all the time.

Well, I for one, am relieved that you've moved from implication to straight-up support of fascism.

ArchfiendBobbie said:
I'm really not thinking of the idea of letting them control the conversation. Which is actually why I'm opposed to how Mearls confronted them; he's effectively handing control over the conversation to them, rather than controlling it himself. They can take his tweet in any direction they want, as we've seen limited examples of on this thread. There are other methods of countering them without directly engaging them; focusing on the positives of Kate Welch as a start, for example. Including more diversity-oriented articles on the DnD website. Basically, instead of engaging them on their terms, keep forcing them to attack on WotC's and act to make them irrelevant by not even including them in the official conversations and continuing to celebrate and do the very things they hate. Basically, rather than give in, double-down as a massive middle finger to them, then don't even really give them space to reply to it beyond what they already have.

As for Kate Welch... I haven't addressed what she should do because there are no right answers. Basically, she has to choose between equally-awful options. She can sit back and passively take it, in which case they get a free shot at abusing her. She can engage them head-on, but that risks getting doxxed and both her and any family she has harassed in real life (not to mention the threats and worse). Or she can sit back and let someone else defend her, effectively surrendering her empowerment as a woman for a meeker traditional role... and the possibility that all that will happen is someone else suffers the doxxing and other problems. So, basically... there's no good options for her. I have no advice for her because no matter what I recommend I will be telling her to do something horrible. This is a complex situation where she basically has to choose what sacrifice she is willing to make. She has my empathy, and my remorse I don't have any better answer.

Confronting them is not engaging them on their terms. Ignoring them and letting them direct the conversation is ceding the battlefield and letting them control the conversation.

And your final paragraph is nonsense in so many ways that I am having trouble picking out which things I am angriest about. So here's a quick list.
(1) The implication that this is just the way things are and that there's no way to change it.
(2) The implication that other people engaging on her behalf is somehow 'surrendering her empowerment as a woman for a meeker traditional role' - okay this is the worst thing you said. I picked one, this is it.
(3) Still focusing on the trolls and the guys, and letting her wellness be an after-thought you're merely sad about.
(4) More surrendering and giving up ground to the trolls by insisting there's no good options for her.
(5) And the other worst thing of all - how in two paragraphs you're setting up a

catch-22 wherein nobody can publicly support her lest they anger trolls, and publicly supporting her is somehow robbing her of power.

You're providing comfort and rhetorical shelter to misogynists. If I was feeling generous, I'd say you don't realize it, but damn - after that last paragraph I'm all out of generosity for you.

DM Magic · Jan 26, 2018

Shasarak said:
Of course I would. Why would I not, did Mearls fire them from DnD already?

Wait, what?

nswanson27 · Jan 26, 2018

Shasarak said:
I probably would have to know who the heck Karl Popper was before being able to confirm or deny that I was a fan.

We can have a well functioning society with maximal levels of intolerance. Happens all the time.

Personally I like the American first amendment and this whole idea of "intolerant of intolerance" is the definition of anti-free speech.

Yeah it just needs to be called something else, or just say "tolerant of X, not of Y", although that is a bit of a mouthful.
And there's nothing wrong with calling a paradox a paradox, mentioning a philosopher doesn't make the issue go away (appeal to authority).
Everyone is actually tolerant of something and not tolerant of something else - it just depends on what.

Shasarak · Jan 26, 2018

Jester David said:
View attachment 93307

Exactly, so now Mearls can say what he wants and has to accept the consequences.

Obryn · Jan 26, 2018

nswanson27 said:
Yeah it just needs to be called something else, or just say "tolerant of X, not of Y", although that is a bit of a mouthful.
And there's nothing wrong with calling a paradox a paradox, mentioning a philosopher doesn't make the issue go away (appeal to authority).
Everyone is actually tolerant of something and not tolerant of something else - it just depends on what.

You've been referred to a summary of his argument and conclusions. That's not what 'appeal to authority' means.

Shasarak said:
Exactly, so now Mearls can say what he wants and has to accept the consequences.

Dear Mr. Mearls,

I was so upset about your tweet saying misogynists should leave D&D that I am leaving D&D

Yours,
Shasarak

Shasarak · Jan 26, 2018

Obryn said:
Well, I for one, am relieved that you've moved from implication to straight-up support of fascism.

There are a ton of societies that have high levels of intolerance that are not fascist. Are Communists, for example, exemplars of tolerance? Religions are pretty high up on the intolerance list but are you giving them a pass?

Shasarak · Jan 26, 2018

Obryn said:
Dear Mr. Mearls,

I was so upset about your tweet saying misogynists should leave D&D that I am leaving D&D

Yours,
Shasarak

Haha you are funny. Should I make up silly letters and sign your name to them too?

ArchfiendBobbie · Jan 26, 2018

Obryn said:
Confronting them is not engaging them on their terms. Ignoring them and letting them direct the conversation is ceding the battlefield and letting them control the conversation.

And confronting them without carefully controlling how you confront them has the same effect as ignoring them. My argument is that Mearls did not use enough control in how he confronted them.

And your final paragraph is nonsense in so many ways that I am having trouble picking out which things I am angriest about. So here's a quick list.
(1) The implication that this is just the way things are and that there's no way to change it.
(2) The implication that other people engaging on her behalf is somehow 'surrendering her empowerment as a woman for a meeker traditional role' - okay this is the worst thing you said. I picked one, this is it.
(3) Still focusing on the trolls and the guys, and letting her wellness be an after-thought you're merely sad about.
(4) More surrendering and giving up ground to the trolls by insisting there's no good options for her.
(5) And the other worst thing of all - how in two paragraphs you're setting up a catch-22 wherein nobody can publicly support her lest they anger trolls, and publicly supporting her is somehow robbing her of power.

You asked if I thought she should passively sit back and take it. That entire paragraph was limited to options from her end and many of the considerations I felt may be running through her mind. I know they were running through mine.

And, yes, a Catch-22 is exactly what this situation feels like when you're in it. If you do nothing, they walk all over you. Do something... Well, we've all heard the stories of people getting their identities revealed and finding all kinds of nasty surprises in who calls them and what arrives in their mailboxes. So to a certain degree, relying on the protection of being a face on a screen doesn't feel so safe anymore. And asking someone else... My god, how the

do you ask someone else to put their own life and family in this kind of danger? Not to mention the feeling of giving up, of losing that independence and power that defined who you are and your strength.

And I notice that, with all of your replies, you have presented no better answer than I have. You present no advice for her. All you do is try to twist my words to make yourself feel better. Not to mention the fact this makes the second time I have caught you outright lying. Generosity? Pull the other leg; it has bells on.

So tell me, what's your answer on what she should do? Or are you just full of

?

Zardnaar · Jan 26, 2018

Shasarak said:
There are a ton of societies that have high levels of intolerance that are not fascist. Are Communists, for example, exemplars of tolerance? Religions are pretty high up on the intolerance list but are you giving them a pass?

The way I read it was that tolerence from a historical PoV is not required for a successful functioning society.

For most of human history the opposite has been true. For all we know liberal democracy may not even exist in 100 years, it doesn't seem to be a stable form of government long term and arguably has existed for 100 odd years depending on what country you come from.

Generally changing ideas takes time, if you push things to fast you get a blow back doesn't matter what idea you are pushing (right/left). That blow back can be extreme or fleeting as the next government or regime can easily change it.

I know I am starting to appreciate the Queen more as in theory she can remove crappy leaders from power.

Shasarak · Jan 26, 2018

Zardnaar said:
Game designers change their minds in hindsight, Mentzer for example recently said BECMI going to level 36 was a mistake and if he had to do it over again it would top out at 20.

I thought he was persona non grata at the moment? Or was that so 2017?

D&D 5E Mearls' "Firing" tweet

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