D&D 5E No Magic Shops!

Fanaelialae said:

It's important to keep in mind that, while 1e did have prices for magic items, IIRC the DMG explicitly stated that these were not intended for the buying of magic items. Rather, in that edition, you received XP largely based on the gold value you were able to recover from the dungeon (or it might have been gold value you spent in between adventures). Either way, it was intended for the awarding of experience points and not for running magic shops (though I don't doubt that some DMs used it to that end regardless).

As an aside, I don't think magic items price lists have ever been implemented all that well in D&D, even in 3e where they were at the core of the rules. There were multiple items in the 3e DMG that were either priced so low that they were a steal, or so high that you'd be crazy to touch the item with a 10' pole. That's not even considering campaign specific pricing, such as what a Decanter of Endless Water might fetch in Dark Sun.

Click to expand...

The fact it wasn't perfect is a poor argument for not even trying.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

Elfcrusher said:

"Obviously"

"deserve"

"full"

"promised"

Oh, my. If this wasn't meant tongue-in-cheek....oh, my.

So many people seem to completely misunderstand...or willfully/hopefully/delusionally misinterpret...what WotC meant by a modular system, and their desire to appeal to fans of all editions.

It most certainly did NOT mean a promise that every feature of every previous edition that people yelled about would get included.

Click to expand...

It all boils down to a simple question: are you opposed to providing optional support for playstyles you yourself might not prefer?

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

In my games, there are a few "Magic Shoppes" in the major cities of the world, but for the most part the magic item transactions of the world break down into two things that do not take place in these shops.

#1: Minor items, consumables and scrolls are bought and sold in temples and more general stores in wealthy areas. A powerful merchant will have a small sampling of magic as his high end items for his special customers.

#2: There are a few specialized merchants that buy and sell magic items, usually on consignment or merely serving as an agent for the transaction - connecting buyer and seller for a price. If the PCs want a powerful staff, he'll describe the staves he knows to be available, provide the sale price given by the owner, and then a timeframe when he could negotiate a sale. It is a lot like buying a house in the real world - if there were only a handful of real estate agents in the world.

I do also have a few magic shops in major cities, but these generally are not for adventurers. They have items that have been creates to serve the wealthy of the city. True, a few adventuring useful items are there, but items for spying, protection, storage, mobility, work, etc... are going to be more common than weapons, armor, staves, and wands.

That approach works well and gives you easy access to story hooks. It also creates a more immersive world than, "I go to the shop and buy that Holy Avenger for the DMG price."

CapnZapp said:

It all boils down to a simple question: are you opposed to providing optional support for playstyles you yourself might not prefer?

Click to expand...

Well that is certainly a question, but seems to have nothing to do with the previous claim about WotC being obligated to deliver everybody's wish lists with fully implemented modules.

As for me personally:

1. My opinion is purely academic because I don't make decisions for WotC.
2. That aside, in the abstract no I'm not opposed to such a thing (for example, information about outer planes or deities I will never use.)
3. I am opposed if they are non-optional, in the sense of being forced to play with them through AL, which I enjoy doing. Magic item prices would probably never be an AL thing. New classes might.
4. And all else things being equal, I would rather they spend time and page count on things I will use.

CapnZapp said:

It all boils down to a simple question: are you opposed to providing optional support for playstyles you yourself might not prefer?

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

Click to expand...

Will assume that question is open to the public.

Really depends on the what the optional support is offering. For instance, if a supplement were released that included a new ability score generation method for Superhero campaigns (4d6 don't drop the lowest, and you can go over 20!), that's fine. I'd never play it, but neither is it going to create a new trend in the broader D&D community.

In the case of magic shops, @delericho captured my feelings in the recent Wealth by Level thread when he wrote, "it's not enough to clearly state that all of these are guidelines, because people are much more likely to see a "Wealth by Level" table and assume it is holy writ than they are to read the accompanying guidelines." My opposition arises from concern that, on some level, optional support for magic shops would become the new normal for newer DMs and players. It won't affect my games; I'm happy with 5e's default treatment of magic items, so my opposition is self serving and paternalistic.

So yes, I am opposed, but not strongly because I acknowledge it's based on a highly subjective point (playstyle). My opposition amounts to quiet discontent at the prospect (e.g. me posting this), and would result in silent disappointment if it were released. For those who want it, I don't fault you. I just don't want your preferences to become the default because I like where we are now, I plan to play for years to come, and don't want to deal with new players expecting magic shops. Moreover, I hope that when 6e comes around the next generation of playtesters aren't clamoring for magic shops because they fell into the trap delericho described. I think the game is best served by leaving the prices of magic items squarely in the hands of DMs.

CapnZapp said:

No now you are relativizing.

And strawmanning.

Nobody has suggested or asked for "included a price list in core".

Click to expand...

Of course they haven't! There are a few people complaining that there isn't a good price list and better support for magic item shops in the DMG though. The parallels with feats have been mentioned, - which, as you yourself have pointed out, are often viewed as the 'default' even though they are technically an optional variant.
I'm making the point that the same thing might have happened had magic item shops appeared in core, and this may have been the reason that they weren't.

I was also making the point that given the slow release schedule, its quite possible that WotC simply haven't got around to making magic marts in the same way that they haven't got around to supporting other settings, or warlords, or whatever else some people may want in an official capacity. Hence my speculation that they may be observing the various offerings on the DMsGuild to see what sort of things are in demand and well-received.

And there is a middle ground between core and DMs Guild. It's called "official supplements".

And finally you're trying to make the problem bigger than it needs to be: no, WotC doesn't need to issue multiple price lists. Or rather:

They could begin by issuing ONE utility-based price list.

Click to expand...

They could, but should they balance those prices towards the default "Magic items are rare" setting, or price them on the basis of "magic items are common because there are actual shops dealing in them" end of the setting spectrum.
How much cash do they assume PCs will have, and at what levels should they be able to buy specific levels of power?

And, quite frankly, you know better than I do that whatever they do end up producing, won't be good enough for some people. There will be threads here vilifying them for not considering situation X under assumptions Y and Z, where item A is clearly under/overpriced, and demanding that they change them/publicly admit to being wrong/make a 'proper' magic item shop supplement etc.

Lanefan said:

As did 1e, but neither list would be of much use without a lot of adjustment in the much-lower-treasure environment that is 5e.

Click to expand...

Lower than 1e maybe, but, not particularly lower than 3e.

Again, I'm not really seeing the problem. You have a list of magic item prices right there. Surely you can eyeball the prices based on the 3e list. How much support do you need?

CapnZapp said:

The fact it wasn't perfect is a poor argument for not even trying.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

Click to expand...

That's probably because it was not an argument "for not even trying".

It was simply an observation that was tangentially relevant to the post I was responding to. IMO, prices that a DM comes up with for his or her own campaign will typically be better than anything else out there.

That said, I have nothing against an official, optional supplement that has fixed prices. I don't think I would use it, but if it would make you and other folks happy, I certainly wouldn't oppose it.

I do occasionally include magic shops where they make sense, but you can't expect them to have the +1 sword of awesome you are looking for. Often times they have consumables and nothing else. Rarely they have permanent magic items and those usually are of the +0 variety.

By the way, even if magic items are available for sale, I still wouldn't expect there to be actual "magic shops". You would find magical items of a given type at shops that sell non-magical items of that type, if you know which shops and how to ask. Magical rings? Check with a fine jeweler. Magical books? Rare books vendor.

Which raises the question of where you would find a +1 sword because in my worlds there aren't "weapon shops". Martial weapons are always bespoke, not bought from a rack in a store.

Things like Bags of Holding? Well, there aren't "bag stores" to check in, so if there's one for sale somewhere it's going to take some sleuthing. Maybe it will lead you to a rug merchant in the bazar, or a wealthy wine merchant who was given it to pay off a debt and keeps it in his villa, or something like that.

In other words, nobody specializes in "magic items". Merchants specialize in categories of trade goods, and may occasionally find themselves in possession of something magical that is either within their normal domain, or completely random.