D&D 5E No Magic Shops!

Garthanos · Jul 7, 2019

Nebulous said:
Ok, i couldn't remember clearly, 4e was a long time ago and I quit running it! I do remember the magic items seemed rather bland though and paled in comparison to class abilities and spells.

The class abilities all felt tuned to work together to produce a fighting style... if you worked at it something like that could be done for item enchantments though there could definitely be thematic concepts supported by particular items such as one that gave you power over your bloodied status (great both in flavor and function for a longtooth shifter of mine) or which could be conversely used to instant bloody an enemy even if they still had most of their hit points which usefully integrates with a lot of powers. 5e not having bloodied status nor things that gear off of it, sigh.

Nebulous · Jul 7, 2019

Garthanos said:
5e not having bloodied status nor things that gear off of it, sigh.

5e would have greatly benefited from the bloodied status and player and monster abilities that keyed off it. I like 5e but it was oversimplified in my opinion.

Hussar · Jul 7, 2019

Funny how experiences differ. My 4e rogue believed that he was touched by a god (Kord) and that he was a prophet of Kord. He had a life stealing dagger (granted you x temp hp if you killed a target) and he consecrated all his kills to Kord.

He wasn't really running on all 8 cylinders.

"Souls for Kord" was a great line. But, that dagger became a major focus point (as well as a faintly magic spoon that the character claimed Kord used to eat the mushroom soup where he had met the god) of the character.

In our 4e Dark Sun game, the Crown of Whispers was a major factor in the character's life. Searching for it took up like 10 levels. It was great.

To me, it's all in what you make of it.

Garthanos · Jul 7, 2019

Hussar said:
Funny how experiences differ. My 4e rogue believed that he was touched by a god (Kord) and that he was a prophet of Kord. He had a life stealing dagger (granted you x temp hp if you killed a target) and he consecrated all his kills to Kord. He wasn't really running on all 8 cylinders. "Souls for Kord" was a great line. But, that dagger became a major focus point (as well as a faintly magic spoon that the character claimed Kord used to eat the mushroom soup where he had met the god) of the character.

In our 4e Dark Sun game, the Crown of ((Forgetting the name)) was a major factor in the character's life. Searching for it took up like 10 levels. It was great.

To me, it's all in what you make of it.

Story is hugiferous and kind of external to the system too in most cases.

I do remember item-sets that came along later in the game but I haven't used one of those yet, but its interesting mechanically too.

Hussar · Jul 7, 2019

Heh. One of the most unfortunate things about 4e is a LOT of the really interesting stuff that came out for 4e came out after so many folks had left. Had they led with a lot of the stuff, they would have been much better off.

Garthanos · Jul 7, 2019

Nebulous said:
5e would have greatly benefited from the bloodied status and player and monster abilities that keyed off it. I like 5e but it was oversimplified in my opinion.

I certainly find some of it appealing some of it in odd places Attunement is better than item slots...

I actually liked 4es use of inherent bonus rule to enable low magic campaigns. I just do not think assuming they do not exist then saying dm fix it if you actually use magic items, is realistic adventure design principle.

stav1369 · Jul 7, 2019

Maxperson said:
Yes, you can house rule them away.

Adventures are not rules. Now, sometimes they have a small section of new rules, but magic items shops have not been included in a rules section in any adventure to date.

Um, yes. New rule books can alter rules. Adventures are not rules, though, and the inclusion of magic item shops in those adventures does not contradict any rule. If an adventure includes a magic shop, that's the DM who created that adventure opting to include a magic shop per the page 135 DMG rule. It does not change that DMG rule, nor does it require me to opt into the shop. I can use the same rule he did and just nix the shop.

Except not. It just means that the DM looked at page 135 of the DMG and used that rule to place a shop at his discretion. His discretion to engage that rule does not create a new rule.

I kind of disagree about official modules/campaigns not being rules (b/c they are created by official developers which translates to Intention of rules in DMG PHB XTGE etc) but the beauty of the game is it prob does not matter b/c its all DM discretion anyway so both our opinions are valid in that context.

I treat them like Errata.

Kind of like many players/DMs refer to Sage advice to get the intent of rules from official developers.

Imo the way I run my games as DM is I draw from the modues/campaign and use them as precedence for my rulings.

So for "magic stores" I have the following methedology.

Magic Stores

Large city/Metropolis 25,000+

In larger cities and metropolis' like Waterdeep, Suzail, Baldurs gate etc there will probably be number of diffrent
magic stores like those that can be found in Troll Skull alley.

Corellon’s Crown Fala’s Potions stocks magic potions while Book Wyrm’s Treasure sells spell scrolls.
Adventureres will probably also be able to find a small amount of stores that sell common and uncommon level items. (maybe 6-12 stores in total depending on size of city/metropolis)
Rare and above magic items are typicaly not for sale at magic stores (although adventurers may get lucky) as these are only available at Wizarding academies, Temples, Exclusive auctions and factions (Lords alliance, Harpers etc) and usually require services rather then currency to purchase.
Magic stores may attract thieves and opportunists.
Diffrent magic stores usually specialise in diffrent items. Potions, Spellscrolls (see above), weapons, jewlery or other utility items. They usually have herbalist and Alchemical services as well.
Cities 12,000-25,000

In Smaller cities like there is usually only one or two stores that deal in very limited magic items like in Port Nyanzaru (12,000 population)
Ekene-Afa sells +1 daggers, Shield and Yklwa's only
Wakanga O'tamu sells common/uncommon potions and spells scrolss of 1st and snd circle only.
Towns 1000-12,000

For Town sized settlements adventureres may find One magic store of some type as well as herbalist/alchemist (usually a 2 in one store) depending on the size of the town.
Most small towns will not have any.
Villages 400-1000 population
Villages may have a herbalist but will only very rarley have magic store or a merchant that might peddle on occasions withs aid items.

Maxperson · Jul 7, 2019

stav1369 said:
I kind of disagree about official modules/campaigns not being rules (b/c they are created by official developers which translates to Intention of rules in DMG PHB XTGE etc) but the beauty of the game is it prob does not matter b/c its all DM discretion anyway so both our opinions are valid in that context.

They are created no differently than I create my adventures. Being "official" doesn't alter that.

I treat them like Errata.

That's your prerogative. They aren't to anyone else who doesn't also opt into that, though. You are effectively house ruling modules and making them rules. That's cool for your game, but has no bearing on mine or anyone else's.

I cut out how you do item sales, because it wasn't relevant to whether or not the game has been altered to include them. I also have occasional magic item sales in my games. I just don't have dedicated stores usually.

Hussar · Jul 8, 2019

Not sure I buy that [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION], since the last two modules I bought - Dragon Heist and Ghosts of Saltmarsh include rather lengthy rules additions. GoS contains all the rules needed for running naval combat, for example. So, it's not like modules are not a source of mechanics. Traditionally, as well, in D&D, modules have often served as the source for new mechanics or for adjustments of existing mechanics.

But, it does kinda fly in the face of "D&D doesn't have magic shops" when several D&D modules published by WotC HAS magic shops. And, let's not forget, that buying magic items is now a downtime activity, as per Xanathar's. So, again, it's not like the concept is foreign to the game or limited to modules.

Maxperson · Jul 8, 2019

Hussar said:
Not sure I buy that @Maxperson, since the last two modules I bought - Dragon Heist and Ghosts of Saltmarsh include rather lengthy rules additions.

Right. Some modules explicitly add some rules. THOSE are rules, but the rest of the story is just adventure creation per the DMG.

GoS contains all the rules needed for running naval combat, for example. So, it's not like modules are not a source of mechanics. Traditionally, as well, in D&D, modules have often served as the source for new mechanics or for adjustments of existing mechanics.

Sure, in highly limited amounts. The inclusion of naval combat rules doesn't suddenly mean that just because the module including(making this up since I've never seen it) 2 ogres, that the rules of D&D is now that 2 ogres have to be in adventures as a rule.

But, it does kinda fly in the face of "D&D doesn't have magic shops" when several D&D modules published by WotC HAS magic shops. And, let's not forget, that buying magic items is now a downtime activity, as per Xanathar's. So, again, it's not like the concept is foreign to the game or limited to modules.

5e has no such rule, though. The rule is, "D&D doesn't have magic shops unless the DM decides to include them." In the case of the modules, the DM writing it has opted to include it per the 5e DMG rule. What the inclusion doesn't do, though, no matter how people in this thread might wish that it did, is to make magic shops the baseline in 5e as some sort of new rule.