Anyone else tired of the miserly begrudging Rogue design of 5E?

CapnZapp · Mar 29, 2018

Arilyn said:
Lately, the rogue has become a little too much a combat machine

Every class has been made competent in combat, since that's 50-90% of game play.

There's no reason to keep a non-combat class around like the 5E Rogue.

At least create a subclass for those would like to play a combat-enabled Rogue!

5ekyu · Mar 29, 2018

Also, imo, focusing on the rogue from just a dpr focus is truly missing the point. In combat imx sneak keeps the dpr in the ball park for competitive but not top - assuming not just looking at white room novas .

But the real gains in combat come as much from its movement and other tricks. Cunning action, evasion, uncanny dodge etc etc etc and various sub-class features play well into combat, plus the strong non-combat play.

But power is only meaningful in the context of need, so, table to table any (im)balance can occur.

Hjorimir · Mar 29, 2018

CapnZapp said:
Rogues are very squishy. The fact they have evasion and bonus dodge does not mean their hp and AC issues go away.

So yes, very unfortunate indeed, agreed.

HP issues? They have on average 1 less HP per level than a fighter (other than at 1st). A DEX 20 rogue in studded leather is a 17 AC. Sure, they're not "tanks," but they're not intended to be. Maybe takes the Moderately Armored feat along the way to your 20 DEX for a +1 DEX and shield proficiency. Now you're 19 AC (before magic), along with being slippery in combat (Cunning Action) and taking half damage from either Uncanny Dodge or Evasion. The rogues in my game are usually like Bill Murray at the end of Ghost Busters (barely touched by the marshmallow flying around) while everybody else is trying to staunch the blood leaking out of their bodies.

jgsugden · Mar 29, 2018

I think the Rogue needs an entire rebuild, honestly. It needs to be the best 'Alpha strike' class, but Heavy Weapon fighters blow them out. I'd rather they had rebuilt it than the ranger...

I have a generous house rule for rogues, but even with the house rule it is not a class that people choose to play. The house rule: If you hit a target that does not consider you to be an enemy, you deal backstab damage. Backstab damage is 3 per level of the rogue.

Imaro · Mar 29, 2018

Tony Vargas said:
In 3e & 4e, flanking meant that the rogue at least benefited from a modicum of cooperation...

Sneak Attack still benefits from allies in 5e.

CapnZapp · Mar 29, 2018

Salthorae said:
Assassinate works easily... you have advantage on anyone who hasn't gone in the initiative order yet, so you're guaranteed Sneak Attack against something unless you go after all enemies. The auto crit part is separate from that, and getting surprise isn't that hard, they just need to not be aware of you. Some in the combat maybe surprised while others aren't.

Sorry but you didn't read my original post.

In any game where the players agree it's boring to sit and watch one player do a solo scouting round, assassinate is nearly worthless.

There simply will almost never be any surprise when a full plate character comes along.

Basing the Rogue design on the assumption that the fighter players must stop playing in order to enable my abilities is bad.

This thread is about suggestions on how to make Rogues work for groups that like to play together.

Besides, scouting ahead on your own is inherently too dangerous in games with any degree of challenge. To justify the risk of getting ganged by all the monsters by yourself, the assassinate ability needed to have been much stronger, and much more reliable.

Imaro · Mar 29, 2018

jgsugden said:
I think the Rogue needs an entire rebuild, honestly. It needs to be the best 'Alpha strike' class, but Heavy Weapon fighters blow them out. I'd rather they had rebuilt it than the ranger...

I have a generous house rule for rogues, but even with the house rule it is not a class that people choose to play. The house rule: If you hit a target that does not consider you to be an enemy, you deal backstab damage. Backstab damage is 3 per level of the rogue.

But a well played rogue isn't taking the type of damage a Hvy Weapon fighter is...

CapnZapp · Mar 29, 2018

mellored said:
The big issue IMO, is the rogue doesn't play well with the rest of the party. Never has.

Exactly.

Thank you

The suggestions upthread are intended for rogues who stick to the group, and still want to feel meaningful.

Tony Vargas · Mar 29, 2018

CapnZapp said:
In any game where the players agree it's boring to sit and watch one player do a solo scouting round, assassinate is nearly worthless.

Basing the Rogue design on the assumption that the fighter players must stop playing in order to enable my abilities is bad..

It's spotlight balance.

Imaro · Mar 29, 2018

CapnZapp said:
Sorry but you didn't read my original post.

In any game where the players agree it's boring to sit and watch one player do a solo scouting round, assassinate is nearly worthless.

There simply will almost never be any surprise when a full plate character comes along.

Basing the Rogue design on the assumption that the fighter players must stop playing in order to enable my abilities is bad.

This thread is about suggestions on how to make Rogues work for groups that like to play together.

Besides, scouting ahead on your own is inherently too dangerous in games with any degree of challenge. To justify the risk of getting ganged by all the monsters by yourself, the assassinate ability needed to have been much stronger, and much more reliable.

If the rogue is hidden even while the group moves forward in plain sight he can still get the auto-crit... right? As long as the other side isn't aware of him/her