Killing In The Name Of Advancement

While I'm not much of a fan of the song (and I didn't care for the movie it came from), I've been hearing a few commercials lately using the Bonnie Tyler song "I Need A Hero," and it has triggered thoughts on heroes and heroism in gaming.

Photo by Jessica Podraza on Unsplash

We have a problem with being heroic in a number of role-playing games, but most particularly in fantasy games where the ideas of advancement and betterment for characters are built around the concept of killing. In games with alignment systems, this doubles down because alignment becomes a mechanical expression of morality in those games. So, not only does this mean that killing is the method in these games for your character to become better at what they do, killing also becomes the moral choice for dealing with situations.

This is what causes the problem with being heroic, because in my mind being a hero and killing are at cross purposes with each other. I get that there are a number of different ways to define heroes, but for me that definition has been informed by my years of comic book reading. Superman. Captain America. Spider-Man. Yes, each of these characters has had stories where they have had to kill, but the focus of those stories wasn't about the killing, as much as they were about the impact that the killings had upon the characters. I am not saying that heroes are never going to kill, but they do it only as a last resort and their characters aren't defined by the action.

This is at the root of my disconnect with many fantasy role-playing games, and much fantasy fiction. I like characters who are heroes. The fantasy fiction that I interact with tends to come from comic books. Travis Morgan of Warlord. The Nightmaster. Heroes can be complicated, they can be conflicted, but they can still be basically good. For me, that can get lost in translation with games.

I define a lot of games as being heroic that others might not. I think that the underlying struggle of Call of Cthulhu and games like Trail of Cthulhu are inherently heroic. In this style of Lovecraftian gaming, the characters are engaged in a struggle that they will likely not survive, not because they want to be a part of that struggle, but because they feel that they must. I think that is the core of heroic characters: they are motivated to take action, regardless of their personal safety, because they know that the action has to be taken. I know that this is an untraditional interpretation of Lovecraftian games, but it is an interpretation that makes the games easier on those who aren't as much of a fan of horror, or horror gaming.

Games like Doctor Who: Adventures In Time And Space are at the opposite pole of the games that reward killing. Violence is deemphasized in the game by making it literally the last thing that occurs during a round. Characters are encouraged to resolve conflict through methods other than violence, much like in the television show. Doctor Who, as a television show, can be a weird example of heroism, however, because while the Doctor preaches that violence shouldn't be the answer, and he himself is mostly directly non-violent in his responses, he is also know to surround himself with Companions who can react violently on his behalf (Captain Jack Harkness, I am looking at you, along with the many UNIT soldiers who accompanied him in the old days), and sometimes with his blessing. The Doctor is, at times, moved to violence, and even to killing, but much like with the super-heroic examples that I mentioned above, the stories about him doing this are about the whys of his violent reactions and his killing, and how they impact the character. You could argue that a lot of the stories of the NuWho era are about exploring the impact that the deaths that he was responsible for during the Time War have weighed upon him, and shaped his psyche.

I think that I would have less of a problem with the systems that build advancement upon violence and killing, if there were more of an exploration of how these acts can impact the psychology of the characters, rather than just giving them an additional to hit bonus. If you've been in a fight in real life, you know that even when you win a fight your mind still works you over. Violence is not fun.

Yes, I know the counter argument: people do not want "realism" in their games, they want an escape. This can often boil down to wanting an escape from repercussions of actions, more than anything else.

So, how do you move role-playing games that rely on killing for advancement away from that? When Runequest first came out in 1978, this was one of the things that the game set out to "fix." In Runequest your character gets better by doing things, by using their skills. Yes, this includes combat skills, but you won't get more points for your survival skills because you killed some orcs at one point. When you use a skill in Runequest, you mark it, and then later make a roll to see if it is improved or not. It is a clean and elegant method that allows a character to get better at things by doing.

With games like Fate Core, or earlier examples like Green Ronin's SRD-derived True 20 system, would use a more story-driven method for advancement. The idea behind this is that, as characters move through a campaign, doing things, making rolls for things and, yes, sometimes even killing, that this is what should be the determinations for change to, and advancement of, player characters. In Fate this is called reaching milestones. The characters achieving a milestone in a campaign, which can be as straightforward as defeating an enemy, this should trigger a change in those characters. For example, if a character in a Fate game has an aspect of "Seeking Revenge Against The Sheriff," then defeating that sheriff would be an important milestone for the character in that campaign, and at the very least should trigger being able to change that aspect to something else, perhaps even something tied to the aftermath of that milestone like "I Guess I Am The Sheriff Now."
The sad truth with some fantasy role-playing games is that defeat just isn't enough. In games like the early editions of Dungeons & Dragons, you get less experience for defeating a foe than you would for killing them. That means a slower advancement for your character. In many ways, this is a punishment for taking a less violent course of action for your characters.

I have long held up the Karma system from TSR's classic Marvel Super-Heroes game is not only one of the earliest set of rules that attempted genre simulation, rather than simulation of physics, but it is the single best emulation of the pre-Watchmen, pre-Dark Knight Returns genre of super-hero comics. It punished you outright for killing. If your hero killed someone, they lost all of their Karma. It was worse if you had a super-group with pooled Karma, because you lost all of that pooled Karma as well. However, Karma also made you think about your character's short term successes versus their long term. Karma was a pool of point that were not only spent to improve your character, but you used them as a currency to improve dice rolls for task resolution.

Every time that you spent Karma to succeed at a task, that meant there would be some advancement that you could not take in the future, unless you worked your character harder to earn more Karma to make up for the expense. Add this to the fact that Karma had to be spent before you rolled your dice, and you could be making a literal crap shoot for your character.

However, this worked for Marvel Super-Heroes for a couple of reasons. First, comic book super-heroes really don't change a lot in comics. And when they do change, the changes are often rolled back the next time there is a new creative team on a book. Back in the 60s and 70s, when people other than Stan Lee began writing books at Marvel Comics he would refer to this as the "illusion of change." The idea was that you give just enough change to a character to suggest growth, but not so much change that readers can no longer recognize the core elements of a character. This is the basis of the assumption that, with comics, no matter how much things might change in the short term, sooner or later everything will go back to more or less of a reset point.

Secondly, Karma enforces heroic action. A part of heroic action, much like I mentioned above when talking about heroism in Lovecraftian games, is sacrifice. Karma is a sacrificial element of your character's heroism in the Marvel Super-Heroes game. You spend Karma before a dice roll, which means that you don't even know if you will need it or not, but the action that your character is attempting is so important that you are willing to make the sacrifice. You have to balance short term success against long term goals. You might even be able to argue that the Sanity system in Call of Cthulhu is a similar system of sacrifice to Karma. You sacrifice your character's sanity in order to attempt to drive Chthonic creatures away and "save" the world, even if it is only for the short term.

Unfortunately, the shift in sensibilities in comics that came not long after the Marvel Super-Heroes game came out made these ideas seem corny to a lot of people. Not for me, because even though I am a bigger fan of DC Comics than Marvel Comics, the heroism of the game really appealed to me (and echoes of it still do). It isn't coincidence that the games that drew me away from games like Dungeons & Dragons were Marvel Super-Heroes and Call of Cthulhu. They both had approaches that appealed to my desire for heroism, plus comics and horror fiction were (and still are) the media that I consume the most.

The nice thing about having so many different types of role-playing games available is that everyone can find the games that suit their agenda for playing games. None of these approaches are better than the others, but they can help us to find the ways to have more effective approach to what we want out of gaming. On some levels, even as a kid, I was unsatisfied with role-playing, but as more games started coming out I realized that it wasn't the activity itself that was causing the difficulty but that the approach of the game we were playing didn't suit what I wanted out of RPGs. That was easily fixed once I was able to find games that did better suit me, and I am still playing role-playing games after almost 40 years as a gamer.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
It's always interesting to see this topic resurface -- it's certainly not new. It probably wasn't new when John Tynes, former WotC employee and co-designer of Delta Green and Unknown Armies, wrote his essay about a new 'RPG metagame' called Power Kill over 20 years ago.

It actually goes a little deeper than 'is murder-hoboing heroic'.

--
Pauper
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Banesfinger

Explorer
As others have said, violence is a form of escapism. If you look at (popular) computer games right now, many are centered around violence (however, several popular ones like Mincraft, the Sims, etc do revolve around 'creating').

If I recall correctly, original D&D (including Basic) mainly gave XP for gold. Experience for defeating monsters was minimal, so adventurers often came up with ways to bi-pass monsters and just grab their treasure.

Runequest's advancement was 'realistic', but often fell flat at the table: a thief would only get better at lock-picking if the GM had lots of locks in his adventure... In a city-based adventure, your "bard" would advance greatly, but the warriors in the group didn't get any chance to hone their skills... The end result was that you really only got better at skills that were in the adventure...(which was usually combat).
 

From my own experience I can tell you something about being a hero in the real life. It isn't so funny, it isn't like after end the game you turn off the videoconsole, it isn't like watching a action scene from your armchair. When you are acting like a hero, you really worry, and only you can feel better, relieved, when the danger has ended and everybody is safe. Then you would rather a "boring life" than being a hero again.

I liked the character of Hercules, played by Kevin Sorbo, because he tried to fix troubles with good words and social skills, diplomacy when it was possible.

If we don't want fiction heroes to kill is because we are taught to respect the human dignity, and we can't take justice by his hand. We can't get used to end a human life only because he is a stupy in the wrong side. Police have weapons, but that doesn't mean a bloodbath everyday.
 

Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
I made a little experience with my tables. I've noticed that in combat, players assume fight = kills, and they must go out of their way to spare a foe. It lead to a sentiment that its just easier for everyone to kill and that violence is not only favorable, but most action efficient. So, I turn it the other way around: in my game, damages are always ''non-lethal'' (even for players), dropping a 0 means your unconscious for a non-determined time, effectively removing the enemy from the battle like if he was killed. I use the term Defeated instead of Dead to illustrate the difference. This remove the blood-thirsty feel of many new players, avoid the problem of having to work around the death of foes with important information and gives a sentiment of importance to life. To kill an enemy requires that you specify it, just like in the normal game you have to declare non-lethal damage.

Believe me when I say that the first time in an adventure a players finish its action description by saying: ''this attack that drop this enemy to 0, I want it to be kill the X'', it gives perspective to the idea that progressing requires to kill.
 

It's always interesting to see this topic resurface -- it's certainly not new. It probably wasn't new when John Tynes, former WotC employee and co-designer of Delta Green and Unknown Armies, wrote his essay about a new 'RPG metagame' called Power Kill over 20 years ago.

Powerkill has some interesting things to say. The "New Style" games that James Wallis published don't get the attention that they deserve, because they all have some interesting things to say about games and gaming. Hopefully, like Baron Munchaussen and Puppetland, we'll get to see an expanded version of Powerkill that addresses contemporary culture as well. I think it is overdue.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Yes, I know the counter argument: people do not want "realism" in their games, they want an escape. This can often boil down to wanting an escape from repercussions of actions, more than anything else.

Sure. What's wrong with that, in the context of a game?
 


Tony Vargas

Legend
We have a problem with being heroic in a number of role-playing games, but most particularly in fantasy games where the ideas of advancement and betterment for characters are built around the concept of killing.
It's almost trivially easy to make combat about defeating an enemy rather than killing him, even in systems like D&D (in the classic game, and even, IIRC, 3.5, it was intentionally made harder to subdue than to kill, but in 4e, you could declare that you defeated rather than killed an enemy when you dropped it to 0 hps, and 5e kept the option of declaring an enemy dropped to 0 by a melee attack unconscious instead of dead).

So you can go all BS&P* on your RPG with minimal effort.

This is what causes the problem with being heroic, because in my mind being a hero and killing are at cross purposes with each other. I get that there are a number of different ways to define heroes, but for me that definition has been informed by my years of comic book reading.[/
The fantasy genre is full of killing - Gimli & Legolas keeping count of kills, for one well-known example. Very different from a Code Approved comic.


I think that I would have less of a problem with the systems that build advancement upon violence and killing, if there were more of an exploration of how these acts can impact the psychology of the characters, rather than just giving them an additional to hit bonus. If you've been in a fight in real life, you know that even when you win a fight your mind still works you over. Violence is not fun.
I ran a 3.5 PC that way for a number of years.
The exp system really doesn't too much get in the way. You fight a lot of genuinely monstrous /things/ that you can't feel too bad about killing (though even being in the same room with one is plenty traumatizing), if undead or aberrations or constructs can even be counted as alive in a meaningful sense. When you do fight humanoids and thinking monsters, then conscience can come into it.

So, how do you move role-playing games that rely on killing for advancement away from that? When Runequest first came out in 1978, this was one of the things that the game set out to "fix." In Runequest your character gets better by doing things, by using their skills. Yes, this includes combat skills, but you won't get more points for your survival skills because you killed some orcs at one point. When you use a skill in Runequest, you mark it, and then later make a roll to see if it is improved or not. It is a clean and elegant method that allows a character to get better at things by doing.
You don't have to kill anything to get a tik by your sword or shield or parry skill, either, you just need to use it in combat. In the RQ games I was in, it was common for enemies to surrender and offer ransom for their release rather than fight to the death, too.



The sad truth with some fantasy role-playing games is that defeat just isn't enough. In games like the early editions of Dungeons & Dragons, you get less experience for defeating a foe than you would for killing them. That means a slower advancement for your character. In many ways, this is a punishment for taking a less violent course of action for your characters.
Yep, and for most of the game's history, exp awards for non-combat success (other than acquiring & retaining treasure, of course), were sketchy, small, or non-existent (really, only 4e SCs formalized it in a way that was comparable to the exp from combat success).


The nice thing about having so many different types of role-playing games available is that everyone can find the games that suit their agenda for playing games.
True to a point. It's not hard to find exactly the right game for you. It is hard to find a few other people who have also found the /same/ exactly the right game, for them. ;)











* Broadcasting Standards & Practices, under which, for instance, to avoid traumatizing the kiddies, Wolverine's claws never draw a drop of blood, but he can shred robots with 'em all day.
 

Derren

Hero
Thats why I like Traveller. You already start in your prime (or even past it) and hardly advance at all except through gaining better equipment.
 

Celebrim

Legend
I've always thought Call of Cthulhu's advancement system was one of the most elegant systems in gaming because it simulates so many intuitive ideas about how people get better at doing something.

In terms of the tension between being heroic and killing things, I often find that at some level this idea can be taken too far the other way as well. A famous example would be Batman's relationship with the Joker, where the fact that Batman refuses to take the life of a psychotic murderer results repeatedly in the death and suffering of hundreds or thousands of people. A moral system adopted to explain a comic book code doesn't work very well when the tropes of the setting change, but at no point does the story deeply address the philosophy of pacifism and the challenges that adopting pacifism has for remaining moral. Occasionally the story lines might address the challenge departing from pacifism raises for the hero, but it almost never makes an honest assessment of the reverse. Thus, we have on one extreme an otherwise very well done and in my opinion perhaps even thoughtful story in the 'Harry Potter' series, having some horrible fridge logic to it if you bother to ask the question of whether the young Harry Potter was right to object to the plans of his elders Remus Lupin and Sirius Black to kill the traitor Peter Pettigrew. I think that there is a reasonable objection to be made that Harry's naïve idealism didn't obtain the best possible outcome, and that perhaps Peter Pettigrew deserved to die and it would have been better for everyone to realize that. On the other end of the quality spectrum, one of the dumbest stories I have ever read, 'The Knife of Never Letting Go', had among its innumerably stupidities that the erstwhile protagonist (a thoroughly loathsome individual) refuses to kill even when doing so was necessary for self-defense of both himself and others (and yet later engages in an act of cold blooded murder).

There has long been a complex dialogue between the pacifist and honorable warrior over the best way to love and what is most required for a moral life. Yet so much of that complexity in popular culture gets lost behind simplistic comic book tropes that I think were adopted mainly because it wasn't felt this complexity was appropriate for a children's medium. The truth is it's not an wholly unreasonable position to suggest that at times the hero kills, however much we may not want to deal with that in a show for children like, 'Avatar: The Last Airbender' and always produce an out for our protagonist like some sort of 'Get out of Moral Dilemma Free' card.

In a world that is entirely human-centric, it's reasonable to make the dilemma between killing and refraining from killing central to the story.

But in a world containing physical demons and their inhuman minions, monsters and enemies of all mankind and even all life, where those things can be killed, it doesn't strike me as much of a conversation worth having with respect to those demons and creatures of anti-life. Call of Cthulhu doesn't really expect any sane investigator to have any question in their mind regarding whether destroying mythos creatures is fundamentally good. Nor can we really expect the world of D&D to make this front and center with respect to all the inhuman and inherently evil hordes that oppose all that is good and true and living. The presence of the truly monstrous is intended to simplify the discussion. That isn't to say that you can't have complex storylines about violence by bending and subverting the tropes from time to time, but there isn't really anything wrong with not subverting tropes about dragons. The writer of Beowulf doesn't much care about the motives of the monster, nor does a writer inherently excel the writer of Beowulf by trying to subvert him and make the monster have some complex motive based on legitimate and sympathetic grievances. Cheering for the monster doesn't in and of itself mean you're operating on a more moral plane. It could just mean you are also a monster.

I think that I would have less of a problem with the systems that build advancement upon violence and killing, if there were more of an exploration of how these acts can impact the psychology of the characters, rather than just giving them an additional to hit bonus. If you've been in a fight in real life, you know that even when you win a fight your mind still works you over. Violence is not fun.

I'm all for in some way having trauma effect characters, but I'm not sure I agree with your last statement. I think one of the reasons you see so much violence in the world is that at some level humans enjoy it. And while the violence of the violent does I think impact their personality, I don't think it is always or even usually traumatic to them in the usual sense of the word. Sure, they may be lobotomizing their own sense of empathy and you can argue that is self-harm, but I don't think they often miss it. Those that are by cultural training not inclined to do so must suffer for the violence and harm that they do, but valuing life is not something I think humans inherently do - all attempts to rationalize that we actually do based on very bad and biased data about humans at war aside.

UPDATE: I realize that I haven't in fact addressed the most serious complaint that can be raised against a system that awards XP primarily for killing foes. I guess I'll have to write the second part of this reply at a later point.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Remove ads

Latest threads

Remove ads

AD6_gamerati_skyscraper

Remove ads

Recent & Upcoming Releases

Top