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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnd4vr View Post
    Regardless of gender, proving harassment should be done by law, not public opinion and justifiable outrage. It is wrong to blame and do to women, but it is just as wrong to blame and do to men. Everyone deserves a chance to defend themselves and we should not make such things into modern day witch (or warlock) hunts. I know victims as well, on both sides, and "getting some pushback" is never a good thing.

    Just something to think about.
    Here's the thing. By the very nature of such things, sexual harassment is very hard to prove. It usually happens when the perpetrator and victim are alone, which means it turns into a he-said-she-said thing. And that means there's reasonable doubt, which in turn means it's almost impossible to convict someone of it.

    But I'm not a court of law. I can still believe in one of the parties over the other without overwhelming proof. I can definitely do that when there are multiple accusations. And I can then choose not to associate with the alleged perpetrator, or in some cases not spend money on things he has been involved in.
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  2. #12
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    Simple question for men. When you leave your house do you *ever* think about how you will avoid, or protect yourself against, sexual assault? I know I donít and nor do most men. Women do, though, all the time. They canít avoid the constant sexual harassment, so thatís something they have to live with. That is the culture we live in. What some men deal with is a drop in the ocean. So no, Iím not going to find any equivalence in the situation. At all.
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  3. #13
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    Man, can we please leave the tremendously bad takes in other thread? I used to think ďwell, if they arenít convicted in a court of law thereís literally nothing we can do!Ē was the worst take a rational person could make (thereís at least a logic there, if incredibly myopic); if only I had known how much lower that bar could go.

    Look, the standards of proof in criminal law is as high as it is for a reason: the consequences are incredibly severe. You literally lose your freedom. There is no way for any social consequences to come anywhere close to that level of severity, so the idea that the standards of proof should be at the same level is nonsensical. It has nothing to do with the nature of the crime making meeting that high standard incredibly difficult (though it does explain why it continues to be so pervasive, and why survivors of such crimes still face so much stigma for coming forward); and everything to do with the standards of proof to be met for social ostracism are (or at least ought to be) lower than the standards for facing jail time. Is the evidence that has been assembled so far enough to convict him in a court of law? I donít know, and it doesnít matter. What I do know is that the evidence is pretty damning at this point, and thatís enough for the collective community to take action.

    One last thing, before it comes up: the community has a greater responsibility for keeping its vulnerable members safe from predators than it has to rehabilitating predators. This doesnít mean rehabilitation isnít possible, just that the only person responsible for that rehabilitation is the perpetrator themselves.
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by robus View Post
    Letís cool it with the himpathy. Men have been s to women for millennia and now we get some pushback itís ďoh no, his life is ruinedĒ. I know too many women whose lives have been damaged by sexual assault/harassment, my daughter not least among them. Just because a guy is nice to some women doesnít mean he canít be a harasser of others. The ďsome of my best friends are women!Ē defense.
    Himpathy?!? WTF. Do you really have to make everything into a gendered insult, even basic human compassion?

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by robus View Post
    Letís cool it with the himpathy. Men have been s to women for millennia and now we get some pushback itís ďoh no, his life is ruinedĒ. I know too many women whose lives have been damaged by sexual assault/harassment, my daughter not least among them. Just because a guy is nice to some women doesnít mean he canít be a harasser of others. The ďsome of my best friends are women!Ē defense.
    Himpathy? You even have a fake word now. How cute. Point is whatever the truth is doesn't matter. Twitter has already found him guilty. His life is over. I get that you think women never lie about anything. How adorable.
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  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by robus View Post
    Simple question for men. When you leave your house do you *ever* think about how you will avoid, or protect yourself against, sexual assault? I know I donít and nor do most men. Women do, though, all the time. They canít avoid the constant sexual harassment, so thatís something they have to live with. That is the culture we live in. What some men deal with is a drop in the ocean. So no, Iím not going to find any equivalence in the situation. At all.
    So since women have to think differently about assault men have to be thought guilty until proven innocent. The entire system of common law has to change because some guys are turds. Good plan.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by robus View Post
    Simple question for men. When you leave your house do you *ever* think about how you will avoid, or protect yourself against, sexual assault? I know I donít and nor do most men. Women do, though, all the time. They canít avoid the constant sexual harassment, so thatís something they have to live with. That is the culture we live in. What some men deal with is a drop in the ocean. So no, Iím not going to find any equivalence in the situation. At all.
    If you actually look at the research men are far more likely to be the victims of violence then women, and stranger based sexual assault is the least common form of sexual assault.

    But we taught women to be afraid all the time, even when it's irrational to be so based actual evidence. That is the true injustice women face.

    I'm more likely to be murdered then a woman, a lot more likely, but do I spend my time worrying about it? No, because it's unlikely, this isn't a war torn nation.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gradine View Post
    Man, can we please leave the tremendously bad takes in other thread? I used to think ďwell, if they arenít convicted in a court of law thereís literally nothing we can do!Ē was the worst take a rational person could make (thereís at least a logic there, if incredibly myopic); if only I had known how much lower that bar could go.

    Look, the standards of proof in criminal law is as high as it is for a reason: the consequences are incredibly severe. You literally lose your freedom. There is no way for any social consequences to come anywhere close to that level of severity, so the idea that the standards of proof should be at the same level is nonsensical. It has nothing to do with the nature of the crime making meeting that high standard incredibly difficult (though it does explain why it continues to be so pervasive, and why survivors of such crimes still face so much stigma for coming forward); and everything to do with the standards of proof to be met for social ostracism are (or at least ought to be) lower than the standards for facing jail time. Is the evidence that has been assembled so far enough to convict him in a court of law? I donít know, and it doesnít matter. What I do know is that the evidence is pretty damning at this point, and thatís enough for the collective community to take action.

    One last thing, before it comes up: the community has a greater responsibility for keeping its vulnerable members safe from predators than it has to rehabilitating predators. This doesnít mean rehabilitation isnít possible, just that the only person responsible for that rehabilitation is the perpetrator themselves.
    Having you rep shredded by #Metoo has lead to suicides, so the stakes are high in and out if court, but at least courts have rules and the accused have rights.

  9. #19
    ITT: people who don't realize that beyond-a-reasonable-doubt only applies to criminal cases, and for good reason. Ourentire world would grind to a halt overnight if everything suddenly had to be ruthlessly cross-examined and scrutinized for the tiniest detail. Hell, civil cases use balance of probabilities 50+1 to determine whether or not the plaintiff has to cough up the dough. So yeah, choke on your "proof", or shove it up your . Take your pick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Staffan View Post
    Here's the thing. By the very nature of such things, sexual harassment is very hard to prove. It usually happens when the perpetrator and victim are alone, which means it turns into a he-said-she-said thing. And that means there's reasonable doubt, which in turn means it's almost impossible to convict someone of it.

    But I'm not a court of law. I can still believe in one of the parties over the other without overwhelming proof. I can definitely do that when there are multiple accusations. And I can then choose not to associate with the alleged perpetrator, or in some cases not spend money on things he has been involved in.
    This. And considering more and more evidence is magerializing against Projared, I'm not inclined to give hom the benefit of the doubt.
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by gyor View Post
    Himpathy?!? WTF. Do you really have to make everything into a gendered insult, even basic human compassion?
    Itís actually a neologism (language evolves, who knew?!) to describe exactly what Scott was doing:

    The Cornell philosophy professor Kate Manne has now given us the term himpathy, which she has defined as ďthe inappropriate and disproportionate sympathy powerful men often enjoy in cases of sexual assault, intimate partner violence, homicide and other misogynistic behavior.Ē

    To move from sympathy (or empathy) to himpathy is something else, too: to share a feeling of supportive bonding with a male individual, usually in a powerful position, and through him with the fragile, endangered male sex.
    While the quote is from somewhere else, thereís more here if youíre interested: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/26/o...core-ios-share
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