Harassment Policies: New Allegations Show More Work To Be Done - Page 30
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  1. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by billd91 View Post
    "The girl" isn't there for you to "get". She's not a product on the shelf or a prize to be one. It's not your responsibility to go "get" her. Nor is it her responsibility to respond positively to you or that "someone else" because you made the "first move".

    This whole approach and attitude sounds like the kind of entitled BS that leads to creeps describing themselves as 'incels' when the truth is they have a toxic attitude toward women.
    There's some surprising stuff being said in this thread; the poster you replied to is at the more extreme end of this. He seems bizarrely lacking in self-awareness in the way he talks as if his default audience is other men wondering how they can "get" women; if in fact he is being deliberate than I think it's probably even worse.
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  2. #292
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    I have been following this thread since it started, and there are so many issues I could address here as a woman, as a grandmother who games, and just as a decent human being but that would take a book.
    I do want to state one thing to all you legal experts, or those who think rules lawyering in a game qualifies you to act as either defense or prosecution here, libel laws. The entity is in the USA so it falls under US libel laws. Proving libel is a pretty high bar, and there are several legal protections publications take in advance.
    First the article clearly states that ENWorld and Mr. Helton are in possession of physical evidence, texts, emails etc that support the claims. Should they be sued for slander the courtroom is the proper place to produce that.
    Second, they clearly gave Mr. Fannon an opportunity to make a statement on his own behalf, and he clearly did. And HIS statement is riddled with admissions of bad behavior in the past and at least one occasion where it was reported to Con organizers. This itself lends credibility to the claims and pretty much ends any potential for a libel suit.
    Third, people have commented on here who know him personally, and they too make enough admissions to again, preclude any potential libel suit.
    Fourth, this paranoid BS about jail. NO ONE is talking about sending Mr. Fannon to jail, nor could they. These are civil offense at the level reported. If he physically grabbed someone that crosses a line to simple assault, then it becomes potentially criminal, but no one has said any of these women want to take it to that level.
    For a libel suit to prevail Mr. Fannon would have to prove these women are lying. His accusations about their motives are ALSO libelous, and his credibility with his own admitted pattern will be far more scrutinized in a lawsuit than the multiple accusers.
    Now to the issue of free speech. There are four recognized exceptions under US law and one of them are private venues. ENWorld is a private venue under the law, i.e. not government owned. How they choose to limit or not limit speech here is a private business decision. You can boycott them if you disagree, this is a time honored form of free speech, but complaining about legal violations then demonstrating a lack of understanding of the applicable laws is just WRONG.
    There is another line running through this thread I wish I had time to address, and that is a pervasive fear, or claimed fear of even talking to women because of the risk of being attacked with harassment allegations. Welcome to our world boys. I am over 60 and I don't remember a time when my gender was not routinely advised on what to say or not to say so not as to give a guy the wrong impression. There has never been a time we were not advised about where we could go safely and where the risks were higher due to the potential for assault. There was never a time when we were not encouraged to stay in groups for our own physical safety. You all know that joke about women always needing two to go the restroom? Too us it was never a joke, it was merely following the advice of protecting ourselves from harassment and assault by sticking together. Any of you guys here ever been on an elevator alone, it stops on a different floor, door opens, a woman standing there, indicates she isn't getting in, no reason or a casual'wrong way" and shrug? Because we are taught to NEVER get in an elevator alone with strange men. period. Those are just two examples of how my gender is inculcated from our first steps to protect ourselves.
    Do we ignore those rules at time? Sure, and when we do and then are actually attacked and we do report it do you know the questions we have to answer? WHY were you there alone? DID YOU say anything or act in anyway to encourage the attack? Were there any witnesses because unless they leave DNA and the attacker denies it is he said/she said. The news is loaded with TRUE stories nearly daily of a woman testifying against an assailant being put on trial to prove that she in NO WAY, word, thought, or deed invited this on herself.
    So now that guys may have to do the same or be treated the same we have all this outrage.
    As for PC, as I said I am a grandmother, I grew up in different times, and it seems to me this resentment of PC(or in my days was simply called good manners) is pretty misplaced. But I hear ya guys, I do miss the days when an elbow to the solar plexus or a knee to the groin of some overly friendly didn't carry the risk of an assault and battery charge.
    Last edited by Jeanneliza; Thursday, 3rd May, 2018 at 03:11 PM.
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  3. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by caljai View Post
    **I do not condone harassment of any kind**
    And yet everything you wrote after that disclaimer essentially condones harassment by arguing for a system in which victims can't do anything about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bowman View Post
    Putting innocent people behind bars doesn't rectify what occurred in the past.
    So we shouldn't imprison murderers? Wait...what are you saying?

    In any event, people don't go to prison based on newspaper articles, let along RPG forum articles. Nor did this guy actually commit a crime. But even if he did, we'd still have the whole indictment/trial/verdict thing to deal with.

    In the past women didn't have the same rights as they do today, but men were still protective of them. If you were a man living in the 1600s, and your wife accuses someone of sexual harassment, you are going to get angry at the accused person and accept your wife's word over his own. You can't say women weren't listened to, as people did hang based on the word of women.
    Oh, I see. Women who are worried about harassment should FIND A MAN TO PROTECT THEM!?!?!?!

    WTF?!?! What freakin' century are you from, man?

    And are you suggesting that, in the case we're discussing in this thread, male friends of the victims should go to the next GenCon and...what...beat the living out of the guy on the convention floor?

    Un-f'ing-believable.

    Quote Originally Posted by caljai View Post
    Unlike the writer and editor of this thread, I have no desire to accuse someone or someone's of harassment without proof.
    Clearly the author believes he has proof.
    Last edited by Elfcrusher; Thursday, 3rd May, 2018 at 03:33 PM.
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  4. #294
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    You know your doing something right when the incel community starts posting on your site.
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  5. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfcrusher View Post
    And yet everything you wrote after that disclaimer essentially condones harassment by arguing for a system in which victims can't do anything about it.

    In what way? You mean that requiring proof is condoning harassment? You mean following laws (like Libel) is condoning harassment? I'm very confused on how you reached such a skewed view. I'm arguing for a system in which facts and laws rule, not here say and allegations!





    Clearly the author believes he has proof.
    I'm sure he does, that in no way, shape or form constitutes proof in the eyes of the law. If the author really believes he has proof of a crime having been committed...then he should report it and turn over all of the believed "proof" (evidence)...otherwise they could also be committing a crime (only in some states is it required)!

    I'd report it LONG before i wrote a thread about it! But then again I am one who follows the law, for good reason!
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  6. #296
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    Full disclosure - I created an account to make this post. Also, I personally know SPF; we are not particularly close, but I have played games with him a few times and purchased his books. I'm not here to defend him - in fact, I have little doubt that he has harassed women in the past. He has admitted to harassment already, so I'm taking the view at at the very least some of what is reported is true, and that is a problem. His initial response, to defend as well as attack Chris and two women, was a poor decision. I see that he has just posted a comment above acknowledging that his response was a mistake, so at least he recognizes that as well.


    I have two serious questions. First, what would the victims like to see happen? They are the aggrieved parties, and their voices carry weight in a sea of commentators (including myself) who were not involved in the incidents. Would they like an apology? Do they want SPF banned from future gaming events? Do they think he should lose his job? Are they looking to raise awareness so other perpetrators will be put on notice? If so, does SFP have a role to play there? I saw nothing in the original article to indicate the wishes of the victims, and only Chris (and perhaps Morrus) are in a position to share that information, with the women's consent, of course.


    Second, what are the best next steps for our industry as a whole? Harassment is a huge issue in the gaming industry, and it seems clear that SPF has been part of that problem. That has been raised to the consciousness of a fairly tightly-knit community, and some who defended SPF while many who have condemned him. There is a point to be made that such publicity will put other harassers on notice, but many perpetrators are not public figures in the gaming world and have much less to lose than SPF from a public shaming. Can we leverage SPF's bad behaviors in a positive way moving forward? Perhaps he could be involved on panels on the problematic nature of sexual harassment in our hobby, or perhaps Chris and Morrus, if they feel strongly about investing in addressing sexual harassment, can provide information and forums for gamers and event organizers to discuss the issue of harassment and organize rules and speakers to combat it.

    The original article began discussing the greater issue in our hobby, but aside from some general comments on the need for harassment policies, it focused largely on SFP. SFP is not the first harasser to be shamed in a public forum, nor will he (sadly) be the last. Harassment policies are an important step, but all gamers need to know that it is our responsibility to speak up when we see harassment. I certainly don't have all the answers, but I'd like to see the many commentators denying the problem of harassment in our hobby come to understand it better, and be part of the solution.
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  7. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by caljai View Post
    I'm sure he does, that in no way, shape or form constitutes proof in the eyes of the law. If the author really believes he has proof of a crime having been committed...then he should report it and turn over all of the believed "proof" (evidence)...otherwise they could also be committing a crime (only in some states is it required)!

    I'd report it LONG before i wrote a thread about it! But then again I am one who follows the law, for good reason!
    You seem very ... confused ... about the differences between lawsuits and journalism, and about the differing standards of evidence at stake.

    You also keep on retreating to a 'crime' comparison - probably because you know very well that a criminal case has an exceedingly strict standard of evidence, whereas neither civil suits nor journalism require what a criminal conviction requires. It's a cute and altogether transparent way to shift the goalposts.
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  8. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanneliza View Post
    There is another line running through this thread I wish I had time to address, and that is a pervasive fear, or claimed fear of even talking to women because of the risk of being attacked with harassment allegations. Welcome to our world boys. I am over 60 and I don't remember a time when my gender was not routinely advised on what to say or not to say so not as to give a guy the wrong impression. There has never been a time we were not advised about where we could go safely and where the risks were higher due to the potential for assault. There was never a time when we were not encouraged to stay in groups for our own physical safety. You all know that joke about women always needing two to go the restroom? Too us it was never a joke, it was merely following the advice of protecting ourselves from harassment and assault by sticking together. Any of you guys here ever been on an elevator alone, it stops on a different floor, door opens, a woman standing there, indicates she isn't getting in, no reason or a casual'wrong way" and shrug? Because we are taught to NEVER get in an elevator alone with strange men. period. Those are just two examples of how my gender is inculcated from our first steps to protect ourselves.
    Quoted for emphasis.
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  9. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by caljai View Post
    I'm sure he does, that in no way, shape or form constitutes proof in the eyes of the law. If the author really believes he has proof of a crime having been committed...then he should report it and turn over all of the believed "proof" (evidence)...otherwise they could also be committing a crime (only in some states is it required)!

    I'd report it LONG before i wrote a thread about it! But then again I am one who follows the law, for good reason!
    This has to be a joke. Right? You're kidding. You must be. No one can be this obtuse.
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  10. #300
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    First time poster. I created an account a year ago, but never felt a need to post on the forum. I have enjoyed and appreciated the articles that show up in my email box. I have enjoyed the snapshots provided regarding our shared hobby. I have been reading this thread and others for days.

    I know Sean Fannon. I have known him for over a decade. At first that was what brought me here, a vested interest in something that had to do with my friend. I have to admit some disappointment from the things I have read here. The dissection of the article. The dissection of Sean's lengthy response. The railing against Morrus and Helton. The discussions of legalities and journalistic integrity. But at the end of the day, to me, none of that matters.

    What matters to me is an earnest discussion and reminder to all of us, regarding our behaviors within a hobby and community that we love. And to listen to the plight of women in our community who have been silenced, to offer them an open forum and acknowledge their struggle, their pains and validate that experience. By being willing to open ourselves up, to acknowledging their truth we can start to move our community in the positive direction it needs to.

    This is a perfect opportunity to set aside all the , to genuinely take a look at ourselves, our friends, our leaders and our "celebrities" and decide we are ready to take a stand. To give back voice and empowerment to those who have been silenced with a culture of fear. I know that I am ashamed, both by actions that I have taken in my past towards others and also my actions in the present where I didn't stand up for someone when I should have. That I didn't call my friends on their . This article has made me stop and critically reflect upon those actions. In this regard, I thank profoundly Morrus and Helton.

    Sean has made statements to the community. He's attempted to defend himself. To explain himself. To acknowledge his actions. For me, this is a good first step. As a friend once told me, "I will never blame you for who you are, only if you choose to remain that way." I will continue to love my friend. But I will also try to help him become the man he wants to be and maybe along the way help make all those around me the people we need and deserve to be; Caring, compassionate, inclusive and respectful.

    To all those who have been assaulted in any fashion, all peoples no matter gender, but more importantly to women who have for too long had to suffer with this culture of fear, I as a privileged man offer my most heartfelt apologies. I am truly sorry for having failed you and not stood up for you when you needed it most. I truly hope that we as a community, not just the users of this forum, but the greater gaming community take advantage of opportunities like this and choose to make a difference.

    I know I will.
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