Harassment Policies: New Allegations Show More Work To Be Done - Page 68
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  1. #671
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    Quote Originally Posted by Afrodyte View Post
    You seem upset. Are you sure you're not just being hysterical and blowing innocent comments out of proportion?
    Long thread. Catching up.

    I'm just going to point this out; as much as I hate to agree with @jasper in this thread, he has a point here.

    I really hate trolls. I hate the trolls that invaded this thread (and if you read them before they were deleted, you know what I'm talking about).

    But I also don't like trolls even if they happen to agree with my point of view. What you are doing is trolling. You might think it is cute, or funny, or that the ends justify the means, or that it is completely appropriate given the number of evil, misogynistic trolls that have flooded this thread.

    It's not.

    For you to repeatedly make the same comment, asking for social security numbers, and to implicitly call people that disagree with you harassers, is a form of harassment. This latest comment that I have quoted is pure trolling. If you had been making those comments to me, I would have reported you for harassment; asking for people's social security numbers on an on-line forum is never appropriate.

    There are a lot of good, interesting, and substantive things people have said on this thread. Because of the subject matter, things will probably get a little heated. Don't be a troll.

    That's all.
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  2. #672
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    Quote Originally Posted by Afrodyte View Post
    You seem upset. Are you sure you're not just being hysterical and blowing innocent comments out of proportion?
    hmm maybe. maybe a little bit. a little bit more. Jasper hands start spread.ing Hmm. Maybe yes. SON OF A beep. Jasper just knock the picture of the wall because his arms were so extend.
    and JASPER gets Snarky on regular occasions. If you think jasper is serious roll a %. On 01-90. Not serious. 91-98 Snarky. 99-00 serious. We now take you back to your regular programing.

  3. #673
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    OK. ALSO @lowkey13 said about SSN. That is over the top but not harassment. But I work in a field dealing with SSN. My firewall/email filters are so tight I sometimes can not download stuff in unsecured fiction documents because the ship name or planet name/number comes close to looking like SSN's,

  4. #674
    Quote Originally Posted by lowkey13 View Post
    Long thread. Catching up.

    I'm just going to point this out; as much as I hate to agree with @jasper in this thread, he has a point here.

    I really hate trolls. I hate the trolls that invaded this thread (and if you read them before they were deleted, you know what I'm talking about).

    But I also don't like trolls even if they happen to agree with my point of view. What you are doing is trolling. You might think it is cute, or funny, or that the ends justify the means, or that it is completely appropriate given the number of evil, misogynistic trolls that have flooded this thread.

    It's not.

    For you to repeatedly make the same comment, asking for social security numbers, and to implicitly call people that disagree with you harassers, is a form of harassment. This latest comment that I have quoted is pure trolling. If you had been making those comments to me, I would have reported you for harassment; asking for people's social security numbers on an on-line forum is never appropriate.

    There are a lot of good, interesting, and substantive things people have said on this thread. Because of the subject matter, things will probably get a little heated. Don't be a troll.

    That's all.
    I appreciate the intent behind this post, and I'll stop asking for SSNs, and I won't ask the same person twice. And if Morrus wants me to knock it off entirely, I'll stop.

    Yet, I find it interesting that my fairly benign statements showing that I don't automatically trust every self-proclaimed good dude are getting more heat than some of the deeply unsettling things several posters have been saying in the past 15 pages I've been participating on this thread.

    If you really think that an exaggerated demonstration of the daily precautions I have to take to avoid harassment and assault is unfairly blaming poor, innocent men who are just trying to have a discussion, you haven't been paying attention to what several women and men have been saying on this thread, and you are not on my side (whatever being on my side supposedly means), and it all of it sustains and supports the structural dynamics that allow harassment and assault to continue and thrive in environments where people are supposed to be safe.
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  5. #675
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenmarable View Post
    Did you read my post?

    Conventions that don't have room parties still have harassment.

    Conventions with sensible dress codes still have harassment.

    It is NOT because of room parties and lack of dress codes that harassment happens. It is from men being harassers.

    Alright, let's back up.

    Sexual harassment isn't just the vile Harvey Weinstein's of the world. The "predators" you mention. Yes, they exist, and need to be stopped. But do you think that's the extent of the problem? Eliminate the predators and women will feel safe? (Or as you say "the predators must seek better hunting grounds. Let those people deal with it." which I won't even touch because thinking that someone else being harassed or assaulted rather than you is an actual solution to the problem is some cold-hearted, unproductive thinking.)

    Anyway, do you think these predators are the extent of the problem? Sorry, but they aren't.

    The majority of sexual harassment, the overwhelming majority that women like RedJenOSU mentions weighs upon her every time she goes out in public, isn't just the Harvey Weinsteins or other predators that deserve to be in jail. It's ordinary men like us that are either clueless to the harm our actions cause or think it's not that big of a deal or that we can get away with it/it's worth the risk. Everyday actions many of us men never notice are sexual harassment that women have to put up with everyday.

    Getting rid of room parties and cosplay isn't going to address those. Scientific conventions have sexual harassment problems they are publicly dealing with. Tech industry conventions have sexual harassment problems they are publicly dealing with. Academic conventions have sexual harassment problems they are publicly dealing with. Every sort of business convention has sexual harassment problems they are publicly dealing with. As I already said, conventions without room parties and cosplay have the exact same harassment problems.

    Conventions without room parties and cosplay have the exact same harassment problems.
    Exactly my point.

    Yes, business cons still may have some harassment. But you do it there and get known, you get punished hardcore unless you are the president of the place, but wealth inequity is another tale for another time.

    I am not a sociologist, but I guarantee that whenever you get drunk guys and gals together, there IS going to A LOT more issues than otherwise. Eliminate that, you get what you want, mostly.

    It is a far easier task to make your place less attractive to predators than it is for massive societal change. A lofty goal, yes. Bad they go somewhere else? Yes. But, the predators that gradually have no place to go either evolve or die out. Until then, the only way you really can not get rid of all of them with THAT world view is you go full nuke and do something like ban all hetero males or something. No one in their right mind would do that. I am sure some of the more radical would advocate that, though. Some may even pay for it.

  6. #676
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    Quote Originally Posted by Afrodyte View Post
    I appreciate the intent behind this post, and I'll stop asking for SSNs, and I won't ask the same person twice. And if Morrus wants me to knock it off entirely, I'll stop.

    Yet, I find it interesting that my fairly benign statements showing that I don't automatically trust every self-proclaimed good dude are getting more heat than some of the deeply unsettling things several posters have been saying in the past 15 pages I've been participating on this thread.

    If you really think that an exaggerated demonstration of the daily precautions I have to take to avoid harassment and assault is unfairly blaming poor, innocent men who are just trying to have a discussion, you haven't been paying attention to what several women and men have been saying on this thread, and you are not on my side (whatever being on my side supposedly means), and it all of it sustains and supports the structural dynamics that allow harassment and assault to continue and thrive in environments where people are supposed to be safe.
    Your attempts at trolling me do not work.

    Let me be clear; I have nothing to prove to you, or to anyone, regarding my bona fides.

    Your statements were not fairly benign.

    You can trust who you want to; to the extent you wish to use the same tactics and rhetoric that is employed by people that I disagree with, then I will disagree with you.
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  7. #677
    If I had to summarize this thread, it would be:
    1. A whole lot of men arguing with a handful of women about whether women are justified in being cautious or mistrustful of men we don't know.
    2. A whole lot of men arguing with other men about whether women are justified in being cautious or mistrustful of men we don't know.

    Maybe a handful of men asking women, "What are some behaviors that make you feel unsafe around men in a convention environment?" and actually listening to our responses.

    Maybe a handful of men asking women, "How can we as a community create an environment where women feel and are safe?" and actually listening to our responses.

    And like I said, I find it interesting that more men are annoyed by my cheeky way of responding to some fairly alarming things some guys are saying in this thread than with the fact that the majority of them I responded to that way hit Creeper Bingo without even trying. If you're "on my side" and serious about being a "male ally," that is what should concern you.

    What should concern you is that these attitudes and behaviors are so commonplace that I've flat-out stopped trying to engage meaningfully with the ones who express them, and went straight into, "OK, let me just give this one a wide berth if I ever met them in person."

    If you care about women's safety, the fact that I've done that repeatedly on this thread should be deeply disconcerting to you.

    Yeah, I'm laughing at it. But it's a laughter to keep from crying because even the good ones don't get it.
    Last edited by Afrodyte; Monday, 7th May, 2018 at 03:34 PM.
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  8. #678
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowkey13 View Post
    Your attempts at trolling me do not work.

    Let me be clear; I have nothing to prove to you, or to anyone, regarding my bona fides.

    Your statements were not fairly benign.

    You can trust who you want to; to the extent you wish to use the same tactics and rhetoric that is employed by people that I disagree with, then I will disagree with you.
    Ok, I can see repeating that question as possibly being trolling (or you could see it as a look into the unrelenting caution women have to constantly be thinking about).

    That being said, what in the heck was any of her well-stated reply trolling you??? Calling your bona fides into question???

    It. Is. Not. About. You. Or. Your. Feelings.

    I'm pretty sure that was stated several pages ago.

    And several pages before that.

  9. #679
    Quote Originally Posted by lowkey13 View Post
    Your attempts at trolling me do not work.

    Let me be clear; I have nothing to prove to you, or to anyone, regarding my bona fides.

    Your statements were not fairly benign.

    You can trust who you want to; to the extent you wish to use the same tactics and rhetoric that is employed by people that I disagree with, then I will disagree with you.
    What exactly do you want here?

    If my response bothers you so much, the ignore function is right there. What are you trying to get from me?

  10. #680
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    Quote Originally Posted by Afrodyte View Post
    Yet, I find it interesting that my fairly benign statements showing that I don't automatically trust every self-proclaimed good dude are getting more heat than some of the deeply unsettling things several posters have been saying in the past 15 pages I've been participating on this thread.
    That is a curious statement. The last 15 pages have been relatively mild compared to what had been posted before where Morrus got involved several times. As for you getting heat more than the trolls, citation needed. I'm not seeing any evidence of what you're claiming, especially given the XP count which equates to support.

    If you really think that an exaggerated demonstration of the daily precautions I have to take to avoid harassment and assault is unfairly blaming poor, innocent men who are just trying to have a discussion, you haven't been paying attention to what several women and men have been saying on this thread, and you are not on my side (whatever being on my side supposedly means), and it all of it sustains and supports the structural dynamics that allow harassment and assault to continue and thrive in environments where people are supposed to be safe.
    So if @Morrus told you to stop he would not be on your side and he you be sustaining and supporting the structural dynamics that allow harassment and assault to continue and thrive in this environment so you won't feel safe?

    Furthermore why does your need to feel safe trump anybody else's need to feel safe in this environment?
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