Darkvision: Don't forget the Disadvantage & limitations!

I dislike 5e darkvision. Anything that makes PC's feel light isn't or may not be required isn't a good thing IMO.

I would be much more okay with darkvision if it was just on a very few select races. I like the low light vision suggestion.

CapnZapp said:

What are you trying to insinuate here?

In 3E Darkvision does not impose any penalty on Perception. The reason it does not "explicitly state" you see as if dim light is because you don't see as if dim light.


A strange thing to say in a thread specifically started because many players forget about pesky detail. If you don't have any issues, why are you even in this thread?

Click to expand...

No. Does not impose disadvantage. Bit it is still black and white vision which should have some kind of penalty. Strange that in 3e it had no disadvantge. Sounds very much as seing not as good as in bright light or human vision in low light scenarios... maybe a bit brighter.
I am in this thread because your solution is bad as you introduce a new kind of vision that was a 3e and 4e thing and dis not exist before. You want to revert a good rule for no reason. The thread was started as a reminder for those that are forgetful and I think just reading the rules helps. 3e did a lot of things differently. And in many cases knowledge of 3e rules interferes with 5e rules. So you can either houserule as you do with all new problems that arise or you can just play by the rules and know that even with darkvision carrying a dim light source is very usful so the disadvantage of not having it is not as big as in 3e.
Just for your information: before 3e darkvision was called infravision and allowed you to see the surrounding's heat radiation or as often played like the military sees through night vision goggles... which was not seeing as good as in bright light and thus illuminating your home in the underdark was useful.
So 5e actually in a way returns to its roots with darkvision only changing darkness to dim light and actually makes running the game easier if you remeber that 60ft is a hard limit. After that every race perceives the same. 3e low light vision was making the game more complicated.
So why do I post in this thread? To encourage players to try the rules as they are before making houserules to fix a nonexisting problem.
Edit: And to remind people that even total darkness does not reduce your passive perception at all as you still can hear perfectly. Yes, maybe you don't see the threat, but then you can still light a torch.

UngeheuerLich said:

Edit: And to remind people that even total darkness does not reduce your passive perception at all as you still can hear perfectly. Yes, maybe you don't see the threat, but then you can still light a torch.

Click to expand...

Ummmmmm... Say what????

From dndbeyond:

A given area might be lightly or heavily obscured. In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
Dim light, also called shadows, creates a lightly obscured area. An area of dim light is usually a boundary between a source of bright light, such as a torch, and surrounding darkness. The soft light of twilight and dawn also counts as dim light. A particularly brilliant full moon might bathe the land in dim light.

I don't know if you want a citation or if you think that it was obvious and no explanation needed... bit since the op thinks you have disadvantage on pp for dim light conditions, I think I explain I show the relevant text and explain it.

Passive perception is usually used when a creature tries to surprise you or stay hidden. In both cases the creature not only has to stay unseen but also unheard. Bad vision does not impose disadvantage on listen checks (perception that relies on hearing) or even checks that rely on smelling.
So there is no reduction of pp per se. But of course, there now is a certain stealth range where the sneaking person stays unseen but not unheard and thus not hidden.
Maybe you can have your party also have disadvantage on listen checks because your heavily armored party members are too noisy... but in that case you can as well carry a torch because you attract more enemies than you would with your torch amyway. At least you have a chance to spot the enemies beyond 60ft range.

UngeheuerLich said:

I don't know if you want a citation or if you think that it was obvious and no explanation needed... bit since the op thinks you have disadvantage on pp for dim light conditions, I think I explain I show the relevant text and explain it.

Click to expand...

Um, you do have disadvantage to PP for dim light conditions. For vision, at least.

Also from DnDBeyond:

Passive Checks
A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster.

Here's how to determine a character's total for a passive check:

10 + all modifiers that normally apply to the check

If the character has advantage on the check, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5. The game refers to a passive check total as a score.

For example, if a 1st-level character has a Wisdom of 15 and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) score of 14.

So, yes, you do have disadvantage to passive checks. It's just calculated as a -5 to the passive skill. My mistake was applying it to all perception, not just sight.

As I said in an earlier post, the rule is written to follow this flow:

IF the character has Darkvision in the dark, THEN they see as if in Dim Light.
IF it's Dim Light, THEN the target is Lightly Obscured.
IF the target is Lightly Obscured, THEN character is at Disadvantage on Vision Perception tests.

Passive Perception falls neatly into the rules in the corebook (it's actually one of the examples!).

Edit: the underlines are me, not dndbeyond.

Doc_Klueless said:

Also from DnDBeyond:

Passive Checks
A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster.

Here's how to determine a character's total for a passive check:

10 + all modifiers that normally apply to the check

If the character has advantage on the check, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5. The game refers to a passive check total as a score.

So, yes, you do have disadvantage to passive checks. It's just calculated as a -5 to the passive skill. My mistake was applying it to all perception, not just sight.

Edit: the underlines are me, not dndbeyond.

Click to expand...

Yes. Good quotes. Of course you have disadvantage on PP relying on sight resulting in a -5 bonus.
By the rules PP is normally only question if someone sneaks up at you. In only very rare corner cases vision and hearing are seperated. A short incestigation didn't help me to find out if finding traps is determined by using PP or active P. If it is PP I think I have to revert my statement and of course, finding traps with PP is indead more difficult with darkvision and needs to be accounted for.

People keep focusing on creatures, but there is a heck of a lot more going on in the dark in a dungeon: clues, secret doors, traps, treasures, etc. None of these things make noise (typically). Noticing them relies on sight. Disadvantage to Wisdom (Perception) vision rolls means that a lot of these things are going to get missed. To me, that's huge. And that zombie/skeleton that's just sitting there, isn't moving or breathing! Relying on hearing to detect such a beast is gonna get ya in hot water.

Doc_Klueless said:

People keep focusing on creatures, but there is a heck of a lot more going on in the dark in a dungeon: clues, secret doors, traps, treasures, etc. None of these things make noise (typically). Noticing them relies on sight. Disadvantage to Wisdom (Perception) vision rolls means that a lot of these things are going to get missed. To me, that's huge. And that zombie/skeleton that's just sitting there, isn't moving or breathing! Relying on hearing to detect such a beast is gonna get ya in hot water.

Click to expand...

All you say is true and I really don't want to deter from that. Still the OP states that PP is reduced by 5 which is not ultimately true. And what you describe is exavtly the reason why carrying a light source is a good idea even if you have darkvision.

UngeheuerLich said:

A short investigation didn't help me to find out if finding traps is determined by using PP or active P. If it is PP I think I have to revert my statement and of course, finding traps with PP is indead more difficult with darkvision and needs to be accounted for.

Click to expand...

The first part of Lost Mines of Phandelver, Goblin Arrows, states with the following it two places:

If the characters are searching for traps, the character in the lead spots the trap automatically if his or her passive Wisdom (Perception) score is 12 or higher. Otherwise, the character must succeed on a DC 12 Wisdom (Perception) check to notice the trap.

The character in the lead spots the hidden pit automatically if his or her passive Wisdom (Perception) score is 15 or higher. Otherwise, the character must succeed on a DC 15 Wisdom (Perception) check to spot the hidden pit.

So, using the starter set as an example, PP does find traps if the PP matches or exceeds the DC of the Wisdom (Perception) check to spot it. If the character has disadvantage on sight (which seems to be the natural thing to use to "spot" something), their PP drops by 5 making it more likely that they walk by or into the trap before seeing it.

UngeheuerLich said:

All you say is true and I really don't want to deter from that. Still the OP states that PP is reduced by 5 which is not ultimately true. And what you describe is exavtly the reason why carrying a light source is a good idea even if you have darkvision.

Click to expand...

True, but I posted the OP and have since corrected that OP a day or so ago to explicitly state that it's PP vision.

But we're starting to argue semantics and that path leads to MADNESS! Point is that some players (perhaps even most players) forget about the disadvantage to PP or AP sight when using darkvision in total darkness.