A discussion of metagame concepts in game design

5ekyu said:

I think it is a key spectrum of gaming preference and may vary much between players by generatiob or at least games they start with.

Lets put it for me this way.

I have little problem with what i see as character-based neta-gaming elements - as in the player invokes them even outside of the character perspective.

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You may be right. It's like a sliding scale and you tolerate depending on where you are on the scale. Numenera was ruined for me by the massive metagame elements there. I love Monte Cook's work too but I didn't like the new system. Still like Monte.

It's kind of funny but I have an "affection" even for my old rivals during the "edition wars". We are kind of like old civil war veterans at that 1920's reunion dinner. I'm past caring at this point about the premise of the wars. It's a mixed bag rule by rule but ultimately I believe the war is lost. I guess that makes me an old confederate ;-). Of course I have the same feeling for my "brothers" in arms.

I enjoy seeing opposing takes on things. And often I can chew up the meat and spit out the bones and still find something useful. I was reading a post by Iserith (who rules wise is close to my opposite) recently that had some good ideas I'll use one day.

High Fantasy usually comes with those elements of game design you are not fond of. What about Green Ronin' s AGE system?

Arilyn said:

High Fantasy usually comes with those elements of game design you are not fond of. What about Green Ronin' s AGE system?

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While dated now, I enjoyed 1e, 2e, 3e which were all high fantasy. I haven't seen the AGE system. Let me go look...

Okay I'm back... I read a review...

It has some concepts I like. If I'm going to have martial maneuvers I want them activated by random chance with an appropriate number of occurrences based on class and level. Choosing when to make a really big critical strike seems unbelievable. If I can choose when, then why not all the time. That sort of thing. I know others love it. This is my fear with Pathfinder at the higher levels.

Emerikol said:

While dated now, I enjoyed 1e, 2e, 3e which were all high fantasy. I haven't seen the AGE system. Let me go look...

Okay I'm back... I read a review...

It has some concepts I like. If I'm going to have martial maneuvers I want them activated by random chance with an appropriate number of occurrences based on class and level. Choosing when to make a really big critical strike seems unbelievable. If I can choose when, then why not all the time. That sort of thing. I know others love it. This is my fear with Pathfinder at the higher levels.

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Yes, should have said recent high fantasy games, as they have a lot of cool abilities which are activated X number of times per day, or as player choice, regulated by points, etc.

AGE is a fun system, but I do like Dragon Age and Blue Rose better than the generic fantasy core, although, if you like tinkering, the generic one certainly has lots of room to make it your own.

Arilyn said:

Yes, should have said recent high fantasy games, as they have a lot of cool abilities which are activated X number of times per day, or as player choice, regulated by points, etc.

AGE is a fun system, but I do like Dragon Age and Blue Rose better than the generic fantasy core, although, if you like tinkering, the generic one certainly has lots of room to make it your own.

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Agree. Limitations like points or uses per day in the martial arena are too metagamey for me. It's the player doing everything apart from the character. The reason I don't like games like FATE are also for this same reason. FATE points are pure metagame. I love FATE/FUDGE dice though. I am always wondering if there is a way to use those dice somehow.

Emerikol said:

Agree. Limitations like points or uses per day in the martial arena are too metagamey for me. It's the player doing everything apart from the character. The reason I don't like games like FATE are also for this same reason. FATE points are pure metagame. I love FATE/FUDGE dice though. I am always wondering if there is a way to use those dice somehow.

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FATE is one of my favourite systems, but like you said, this is a discussion, not a fight over whether chocolate is better than vanilla.

Arilyn said:

FATE is one of my favourite systems, but like you said, this is a discussion, not a fight over whether chocolate is better than vanilla.

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Well my feelings about Fate are definitely love/hate. I love a lot about it. People keep telling me though the game is unplayable without Fate points. I own a several Fate books. Like I said I'm a game junky. Love to analyze games.

Emerikol said:

While dated now, I enjoyed 1e, 2e, 3e which were all high fantasy. I haven't seen the AGE system. Let me go look...

Okay I'm back... I read a review...

It has some concepts I like. If I'm going to have martial maneuvers I want them activated by random chance with an appropriate number of occurrences based on class and level. Choosing when to make a really big critical strike seems unbelievable. If I can choose when, then why not all the time. That sort of thing. I know others love it. This is my fear with Pathfinder at the higher levels.

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my preference for martial maneuvers is not random and not l.imited counters but are limited by circumstance or by off-sets.

Examples would include a trip attack you can try but which has penalties to hit or to your defense or allow counter strikes if you miss, etc. others could include a gradual accumulation of "advantage points" during a combat which can be spent to add additional effects with a "regroup" style maneuver being possible to reduce advantage at the cost of losing attacks. (this would assume and only work for a combat system where it was expected for the fight to last multiple rounds - be a game of creating openings and then exploiting - not say a 2-3 rounds burn down.) Obvious circumstances, scenery and situation could apply "advatage points themselves or have them tappable".

But, i think the simple fact is - one of the reason meta-gamey things like limitations arte easy to do is that they are easy to implement and learn and apply to most any level of combat to provide choices with meaning but without a lot of complexity. They can fit into a "we wil have five encounters but those encounters if fights wont last that long" model or most any type of model with rather predictable outcomes.

The "build-an-edge" system wont work for mowing thru three or four over two-three rounds. Nor is random necessarily reliable enough to make for a predictable series of outcomes - necessarily.

Emerikol said:

I don't consider character creation to be "in game" time. Once I start playing the character in the world only then do I want to have this in world view.

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So playing a sorcerer from level one is fine. But multiclassing to sorcerer later would be an issue.

You could just add a requirement that any bloodline be declared at character generation to deal with that.

Emerikol said:

While dated now, I enjoyed 1e, 2e, 3e which were all high fantasy. I haven't seen the AGE system. Let me go look...

Okay I'm back... I read a review...

It has some concepts I like. If I'm going to have martial maneuvers I want them activated by random chance with an appropriate number of occurrences based on class and level. Choosing when to make a really big critical strike seems unbelievable. If I can choose when, then why not all the time. That sort of thing. I know others love it. This is my fear with Pathfinder at the higher levels.

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Pelgraines Archmage Engine srd has a fighter that uses maneuvers randomly.

Pathfinder CMB is an improvement over skill checks. Fighters are actually good at maneuvers. And you don't need to expend a meta resource or wait for the GM or dice to just hand it to you.

Pathfinder 2 changed the action economy so you have more flexibility in combat.

The legendary mundane feats I've heard of so far don't use spell mechanics but don't stay mundane either. We could always just not use them. Mundane just doesn't get to be legendary would be a reasonable house rule.