American Indians Colonize the Old world in 1250 BC

Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
No, the US Cavalry was not armed with muzzle loaders in 1876. In fact, Custer had a detachment of Gatling guns. He lost because he massively underestimated the Indians' numbers and allowed himself to be encircled.

Custer split his force into four columns which were supposed to surround the Indians, but in fact would appear individually (due to distances travelled). Each group was unaware of each others' positions. The Indians overwhelmed each group (outnumbering each column about 10-to-1) as it appeared, conveniently in order from their-right-to-left.
 

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Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
I don't think Indians would be any different, so a lot of their new culture would be made up.
Exactly. So we can drop the word "Indian" and lose a point of antagonism.
Your model for the 'discovering society' sounds like King Gustavus Adolphus' Sweden (the Thirty Years' War - 1618-1648).
 
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Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
A few months back there was some discussion of a new game, "Dragons Conquer America", which might be helpful for OP's original goal.

I'll have to go look for links.
 

MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
Most such cultures wouldn't have survived 2250 years of technological progress, most of the languages that existed back then would have changed so as to be unrecognizable to most of the Indian tribes we know of today. Do you know of any culture or nation in Europe that survived 2250 of history? Are there any Romans, or Babylonians, or Egyptians? One might say the Greeks have survived, but they aren't the dominant culture in Europe, and the language the Greeks speak today is not the same language spoken by the Greeks during the Trojan War, I don't think Indians would be any different, so a lot of their new culture would be made up. These aren't the nature oriented savages that you are so familiar with. The Indians have learned new tactics in warfighting and have forgotten old ones.

Not sure where you are trying to take this. I was not disputing your premise. I was simply acceding to the point raised by others that this setting could be problematic if published.

Certainly, the cultures in North American would have continued to develop without Western European contact.

Of more interest to me would be what if the diseases that wiped out so many Native Americans, which made it far easier for Europeans to get a toehold in the Americas went the other way? What if the cultures of the Americas got access to horses, ships, guns, etc. but some disease that the peoples of the Americas were resistent to wiped out most of the European settlers and what if that disease was brought back to the Europe and wiped out a large percentage of the population of Europe and even, perhaps, parts of Asia?

The popular conception of North American First Nations cultures was created from the mid-1800s into the early 1900s. It is based on cultures that were already greatly transformed by the horse and by guns. Many of the settled peoples were already conquered, moved, and partially integrated. The camera had just started to be used widely and early photographers were travelling to the few remaining cultures that were still fighting for independence. These were were largely more nomadic peoples like the Souix and Apache and led to famous resistance leaders like Geronimo and Sitting Bull whose imagage were widely printed and took on celebrity status. But these cultures took such prominence and came to represent the "American Indian" in the European conciousness because the more settled communities had, for the most party, long been conquered and marginalized.

If you are looking to start with pre-contact peoples, it is more likely to be one of the larger, agrarian, settled peoples who had more complex governance models. Cultures who spread through conquest or through complex federated governance systems like the North Eastern tribles (the "Five Nations" a/k/a Iriquios league, later the Iriquois Confederacy). Personally, I'm more interested in the thought exercise of how these Longhouse cultures ( Mohawk, Onondaga, Oneida, Cayuga, and Seneca) would have developed if some time in the mid to late 1600s a plague were to kill off most of the Europeans. Given the Iriquois practice of taking in displaced peoples and their success in absorbing multiple groups under a federated system, perhaps the surviving French and British in the North East would have assimilated and that could help accelerate the transmission of technology related to guns, shipbuilding, etc. If plague was wreaking devestation in Europe, that could have given the Haudenosaunee ("People of the Longhouse") time to further consolidate power -- with an outside threat, there would be even more incentive for the tribes to come together in common defense and now that they had access to European weapons technology, perhaps they would not be able to repel the Europeans the next time. And instead of Colonization the relationship would be more about treaties and trade.
 

ART!

Deluxe Unhuman
I'm going to proceed from the assumption that the 1250BC date has been chosen for the state of European and African technology and political organization. So, the assumption is that the Native Americans have c1492 RL tech and the "Old World" (this setting's New World) has the tech it had in RL 1250.

in 1250, Greece is pre-Classical - heck, the Greek alphabet hasn't even been invented/formalized yet. Egypt is at its height or maybe past its prime? In Europe, the Celtic culture isn't even really a thing, yet.

To get the Native Americans to c1492 levels by 1250BC, I think you need a much more competitive American milieu. Maybe a lot more Asians hunt and fish their way into the Americas, at least 15,000 years ago. Maybe their fleeing something in Asia? How NAs get so advanced so quickly is what I'm trying to get at here. Answering that question could help define the setting.
 

tomBitonti

Adventurer
I'm going to proceed from the assumption that the 1250BC date has been chosen for the state of European and African technology and political organization. So, the assumption is that the Native Americans have c1492 RL tech and the "Old World" (this setting's New World) has the tech it had in RL 1250.

in 1250, Greece is pre-Classical - heck, the Greek alphabet hasn't even been invented/formalized yet. Egypt is at its height or maybe past its prime? In Europe, the Celtic culture isn't even really a thing, yet.

To get the Native Americans to c1492 levels by 1250BC, I think you need a much more competitive American milieu. Maybe a lot more Asians hunt and fish their way into the Americas, at least 15,000 years ago. Maybe their fleeing something in Asia? How NAs get so advanced so quickly is what I'm trying to get at here. Answering that question could help define the setting.

There are some interesting ideas that can be used from Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs, and Steel". He presents a thesis that several factors combined to determine societal progress in several measures. The three most directly notable are Geography (for example, comparing the ready internal communication of China to the more distant communications in Europe), Domesticatable Animals (the New World did not have domesticatable large animals while the Old World did), and Domesticatable Plant Species. His argument is that the New World was deficient in these important factors, and that slowed the rate of progress such that when the Old and New Worlds met, the New World was relatively less developed.

Following that, a way to advance the development of the New World would be to add in missing elements: Give the New World horses and Wheat well before 1500 AD (ish) and have as a result a more rapid development.

Thx!
TomB
 

So you are saying that the Indians would find it insulting to suggest that they could ever have a more technologically advanced society on their own? Perhaps you should explain yourself! Why would it be an insult to suggest native Americans could invent Muskets, and that they would not always stay primitive?
I'm not an Indian; I'm not going to speak for whether anybody who is not me will find something insulting. But I am a student of human history and culture, and on those grounds I'm saying that the casual way in which you employ stereotypes even to state that you're not employing stereotypes, the nonchalant comparisons to Burroughs' fictional aliens, the abuse of the word "tribe", all paint a picture of a comprehensive lack of understanding of the issues which needs to be remedied rather than indulged.
 

Derren

Hero
I'm not an Indian; I'm not going to speak for whether anybody who is not me will find something insulting. But I am a student of human history and culture, and on those grounds I'm saying that the casual way in which you employ stereotypes even to state that you're not employing stereotypes, the nonchalant comparisons to Burroughs' fictional aliens, the abuse of the word "tribe", all paint a picture of a comprehensive lack of understanding of the issues which needs to be remedied rather than indulged.

Why does it have to be remedied? Pretty much all fantasy settings, including FR and other D&D settings, are based on stereotypical and twisted versions of real life cultures. Instead they use stereotypical representations of past cultures to invoke the appropriate expectations to the average gamer who tends to be not a history student.
Its much easier to say "they are basically X with pointy ears and a few changes" than to explain (and make up) a complete new culture.
In here this would mean to use pop culture references of Native Americans despite the technological advances.
 
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Thomas Bowman

First Post
I'm not an Indian; I'm not going to speak for whether anybody who is not me will find something insulting. But I am a student of human history and culture, and on those grounds I'm saying that the casual way in which you employ stereotypes even to state that you're not employing stereotypes, the nonchalant comparisons to Burroughs' fictional aliens, the abuse of the word "tribe", all paint a picture of a comprehensive lack of understanding of the issues which needs to be remedied rather than indulged.

I guess you want to be offended don't you, cause you are looking for offense where none is intended. So how much does that job pay? Does someone pay you to look for offense or to be offended? Because I got a real job that pays real money, I don't look to be offended by every little thing, because I can't earn a living doing that, and it does not profit me to do so. So why do you look so hard to find offense? Don't you like to enjoy yourself every once in a while, that's all I am here for, how about you?

For your information I have not used stereotypes, in fact I have gone out of my way to avoid them. To suggest that American Indians would form armies, use muskets, build wooden ships and explore and conquer various parts of the World is not using a stereotype about them that I am aware of. Can you produce a single Indian that would be offended if I suggest that his people can do great things? if you can, then I would bet, he would be a very small minority among his people.

If you are not an Indian, then you have no right to speak for them or to be offended for them. If any are offended let them speak for themselves! The purpose of role playing is not to offend people. This is alternate history for one thing.
 

Thomas Bowman

First Post
Why does it have to be remedied? Pretty much all fantasy settings, including FR and other D&D settings, are based on stereotypical and twisted versions of real life cultures. Instead they use stereotypical representations of past cultures to invoke the appropriate expectations to the average gamer who tends to be not a history student.
Its much easier to say "they are basically X with pointy ears and a few changes" than to explain (and make up) a complete new culture.
In here this would mean to use pop culture references of Native Americans despite the technological advances.

That is the fun of it, telling your players to expect American Indians, and then you describe how uniformed troops of American Indians march off of their wooden ships, and all line up in formation with their muskets ready and begin firing their muskets in regular drill, that is counter-stereotypical of what most people expect when they hear the term "American Indian." There is another stereotype of the Indian as well, as that of a victim, a lot of people are guilty of using that stereotype as well. American Indians don't need people to feel sorry for them, they need people to treat them as human beings which they are.
 

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