D&D 4E Mike Mearls on how D&D 4E could have looked

OK on this "I would’ve much preferred the ability to adopt any role within the core 4 by giving players a big choice at level 1, an option that placed an overlay on every power you used or that gave you a new way to use them."
Basically have Source Specific Powers and less class powers. But I think combining that with having BIG differing stances to dynamically switch role might be a better idea so that your hero can adjust role to circumstance. I have to defend this NPC right now vs I have to take down the big bad right now vs I have to do minion cleaning right now, I am inspiring allies in my interesting way, who need it right now.

and the obligatory
Argghhhh on this. " I wanted classes to have different power acquisition schedules"

And thematic differences seemed to have been carried fine.
 
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Imaro

Imaro

Legend
pemerton said:
But as far as I can tell it is mechanics first: we don't have a prior, in-fiction conception of how tough a 15th level fighter is, and then set DCs and stat up creatures that respond to that. We don't know how tough a 15th level fighter is until we see what s/he can do, taking certain mechanics published in the MM as given.

That's not fiction-first. It's mechanics first.
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That's not true unless you are purposefully ignoring the same descriptions of tiers in 5e that are present in 4e.
 

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darkbard

darkbard

Legend
Imaro said:
That's not true unless you are purposefully ignoring the same descriptions of tiers in 5e that are present in 4e.
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Not so. In 5E, the DC to break down the wooden door is 15 (or whatever), regardless of if the character is a warrior fresh out of training (1st level) or a hero who vanquishes giants and beholders (15th level). That's mechanics first, irrespective of the fiction.
 

N

NomGarret

First Post
Right. Which is the case in 4e as well, it jut approaches it from the question of "How hard of a door would be a reasonable challenge at this level?" Sometimes the answer is the DC 15 wooden door, sometimes it's the DC 25 mithril door, and sometimes it's the DC 35 primal spirit of doors.
 

Imaro

Imaro

Legend
darkbard said:
Not so. In 5E, the DC to break down the wooden door is 15 (or whatever), regardless of if the character is a warrior fresh out of training (1st level) or a hero who vanquishes giants and beholders (15th level). That's mechanics first, irrespective of the fiction.
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The same objective DC's are in 4e.

Edit: Wait are you claiming in 4e the DC of a wooden door would change depending on the level of whoever interacted with it and that is an example of fiction first?
 
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Garthanos

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Imaro said:
The same objective DC's are in 4e.
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Agreed

NomGarret said:
Right. Which is the case in 4e as well, it jut approaches it from the question of "How hard of a door would be a reasonable challenge at this level?" Sometimes the answer is the DC 15 wooden door, sometimes it's the DC 25 mithril door, and sometimes it's the DC 35 primal spirit of doors.
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Ofcourse in 4e without bounded accuracy ie with a system that provides a level based general capacity
at level 23 that "mayors cellar door " which might have been a DC15 is going to actually be inconsequential mechanically and not be a significant difficulty (in fact not bothering to roll for makes sense in most cases) -- in my opinion this matches the Tier flavor better than 5e.

I am not really sure the process is any different in some ways. Just that one set of mechanics allow skill users to lag and spell users to soar.
 
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darkbard

darkbard

Legend
Garthanos said:
Ofcourse in 4e without bounded accuracy ie with a system that provides a level based general capacity
at level 23 that "mayors cellar door " which might have been a DC15 is going to actually be inconsequential mechanically and not be a significant difficulty (in fact not bothering to roll for makes sense in most cases) -- in my opinion this matches the Tier flavor better than 5e.
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This is my point in response to [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION]. The DC 15 wooden door that is a static mechanical challenge for level 1 or level 15 PCs in 5E is handled differently in 4E. At late Paragon/early Epic tier, the wooden door is handwaved as inconsequential because the fiction dictates this. If the early Epic PC encounters a fiction-appropriate obstacle, it is described as the adamantine vault door of the ancient dwarf lords, whose skills at the forge have been lost to time, and a level-appropriate DC is set to match (mechanics following fiction).
 

Imaro

Imaro

Legend
darkbard said:
This is my point in response to [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION]. The DC 15 wooden door that is a static mechanical challenge for level 1 or level 15 PCs in 5E is handled differently in 4E. At late Paragon/early Epic tier, the wooden door is handwaved as inconsequential because the fiction dictates this. If the early Epic PC encounters a fiction-appropriate obstacle, it is described as the adamantine vault door of the ancient dwarf lords, whose skills at the forge have been lost to time, and a level-appropriate DC is set to match (mechanics following fiction).
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See this is where it kind of looses me... a DC 15 challenge is applicable across 15 levels so not only are wooden doors a heroic fiction but also paragon??? This seems to be waffling with the fiction first claim... why does a heroic PC have a chance at paragon tier stuff and why does a paragon tier PC have a chance to fail heroic stuff?
 

Parmandur

Parmandur

Book-Friend
darkbard said:
This is my point in response to [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION]. The DC 15 wooden door that is a static mechanical challenge for level 1 or level 15 PCs in 5E is handled differently in 4E. At late Paragon/early Epic tier, the wooden door is handwaved as inconsequential because the fiction dictates this. If the early Epic PC encounters a fiction-appropriate obstacle, it is described as the adamantine vault door of the ancient dwarf lords, whose skills at the forge have been lost to time, and a level-appropriate DC is set to match (mechanics following fiction).
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This seems pretty much identical to 5E in that regard: the narrative comes first, and the DM deems an appropriate DC based on the narrative.
 

Parmandur

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Garthanos said:
Agreed



Ofcourse in 4e without bounded accuracy ie with a system that provides a level based general capacity
at level 23 that "mayors cellar door " which might have been a DC15 is going to actually be inconsequential mechanically and not be a significant difficulty (in fact not bothering to roll for makes sense in most cases) -- in my opinion this matches the Tier flavor better than 5e.

I am not really sure the process is any different in some ways. Just that one set of mechanics allow skill users to lag and spell users to soar.
Click to expand...

The DC 15 door can be insignificant at higher Tiers. The high level Rogue will be guaranteed to beat it, every time, no tisk, no resources.

There literally is no difference, except mathematical efficiency.
 

Parmandur

Parmandur

Book-Friend
darkbard said:
Not so. In 5E, the DC to break down the wooden door is 15 (or whatever), regardless of if the character is a warrior fresh out of training (1st level) or a hero who vanquishes giants and beholders (15th level). That's mechanics first, irrespective of the fiction.
Click to expand...

Nay, that's a genre specific narrative first, followed by mechanics. The DMG, again, goes into how a DM can make things more Gonzo in narrative with no mechanical change.
 

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