D&D 4E Mike Mearls on how D&D 4E could have looked

Manbearcat said:

@Imaro and @BryonD

1) Terrain Stunting and Skill Challenges both reference DCs being set with respect the encounter level. The RC text I quoted above is directly cribbed from the DMGs.

2) The Terrain Stunting text is below. If you're looking for me to say "apparently it would have been better if DMG1 (perhaps in the p42 section) had the Terrain Stunting section rather than DMG2 because there is some confusion around DC setting, then sure."

Here is the section on Terrain Stunting (which swinging on a chandelier would have to fall under At-WIll terrain):

DMG2 p62

..."or an ogre pushes against a wall attempting to topple it over onto nearby enemies. First, the ogre has to make a successful check to push the wall over.

...Use DC and Damage by level table (page 65) to determine the exact DC based on the level of the encounter."

Ruined Wall, Chandelier Attack, and many others are broken down in this. This is authoritative.

In 4e, there are the below types of resolution via Skill Checks:

1) Free/Open/Exploration/Transition play (extra-encounter) like Passive Perception to notice something or active Perception vs a Trap during exploration or Ritual Casting/Martial Practices. This could be Group Checks if its just a transition. This could be Streetwise. This is what Imaro quoted above.

2) Extra-encounter Contests where you're very specifically challenging/interacting with another creature (eg Perception vs Stealth or Insight vs Bluff to determine if someone starts combat surprised or some sort of action scene/encounter should be initiated or some situation escalated).

3) Hazard/Disease effects (these have their own DCs based on their individual level).

4) Encounter Terrain Stunting - Encounter Level DCs and damage expressions.

5) Skill Challenges - Encounter Level DCs.

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Parmandur said:

Sh, Guidance. Still the limits of Concentration and 1 minute duration.

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Imaro said:

EDIT 2: How do I determine the DC for a single skill check taking place in a combat encounter?

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Manbearcat said:

What are you trying to accomplish?

* Trying to Terrain Stunt? See DC spread for the Combat Encounter Level.

* Trying to Intimidate a bloodied character? Intimidate vs creature's Will.

* Spending a Standard or Move (depending on how the SC action economy is systemitized) Action to engage with a Skill Challenge that is either concurrent to the combat or the combat is nested within the SC? See the DC spread for the SC Encounter Level.

* Trying to Escape a Grab? Athletics/Acro vs creature's Fort/Ref.

* Have Sufficient Cover or Concealment to Stealth? Stealth vs creatures' Perception and if it wins by 10 it pinpoints your location UEoYNT.

* Countermeasure against a Hazard/Trap? See Hazard's DCs which will be Hazard/Trap's level-appropriate DC spread.

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Imaro said:

Again you are taking a specific... the setting of DC's for SC's and Terrain Stunting and claiming it is the general rule. Nothing you've posted above disproves this.

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Hussar said:

Yup, for the next minute, I get a +1d4 on ANY skill check I make, regardless if it was the one I originally thought I'd need to make or not. Totally a terrible limitation. :/

C'mon man, you can admit it. Non-casters get HOSED in 5e when it comes to out of combat stuff. Regardless of level, they are forced into the "What does the DM think is reasonable" box and have zero resources to escape that box. Casters on the other hand, can not only make all the same skill checks that non-casters can, but also have ways of either improving their success chances beyond what a non-caster can reach (Bardic Inspiration, Guidance Spells, etc) or completely bypass skill checks entirely.

Trying to argue that there's parity here is ludicrous. There is no parity here.

Think about it this way. You have a party of 4 PC's and want to add one NPC to the party to give the group a bit more oomph. Let's say a 15th level party. What would be more effective to add to that party? A Champion Fighter or a Cleric? Or a Bard? Or a Monk for that matter.

Pretty much any choice would be better at that level than a Champion Fighter.

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Manbearcat said:

No. I'm not.

At all.

Not even close.

Not in the same universe.

How you come to this conclusion I have_no_bloody_idea.

What I'm doing for anyone engaged or witnessing this conversation should be ABUNDANTLY CLEAR.

I'm going over the Terrain Stunting procedures/adjudication on page 42 of DMG1 and page 62 of DMG2. In the process, I'm breaking down the game in further detail (because you're forcing me to waste my time on this).

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Imaro said:

Trying to climb atop a boulder.

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Manbearcat said:

That is a Move Action to navigate Blocking Terrain.

That is either 1 of 2 things:

1) Its an inconsequential obstacle for the Tier of play, so just "say yes", you move at half your Speed, and give up CA while you're Climbing.

2) The fiction of the obstacle makes it a Tier-relevant threat, therefore climbing it is a Terrain Stunt, therefore the DC should be either Easy, Moderate, or Hard for the Encounter Level. Deploy Climbing rules.

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