D&D 4E Mike Mearls on how D&D 4E could have looked

Shasarak · Nov 10, 2018

Garthanos said:
Wait the immortal godling who had one vulnerable spot only and nearly immune to everything he reaches into the fire and holds it without making any checks what so ever.

Would it even be interesting to play the Immortal Godling in a game of DnD? It seems like it would just be either a series of fights where nothing can touch you or make another save vs death because someone has tried to stab you in the heel again.

I dont know if you can translate every character concept.

Lanefan · Nov 10, 2018

Garthanos said:
Paragon isnt intrinsically god like in 4e that is more like 22. However at 11th there is a spike... in 1e land it was what you call name level (you know when the fighter gets his castle)

Normally this is true. But in a court-intrugue campaign where the highest-level NPCs ever encountered might be the King's Champion at 10th and the Court Wizard at 9th, a party of 13th-level PCs are going to look pretty god-like.

I personally am a protagonist of slowing advancement only doing so in response to the story and a desire to up the kinds of adversaries one is fighting against really
back in 1e you spent alot longer at lower levels

I see this - longer time spent at lower levels - as the absolute best thing 1e ever had going for it.

Hussar · Nov 10, 2018

Reading through this thread, I think that you can sum it up with the ages old question - Should there be parity between the caster classes and the non-caster classes?

D&D, outside of 4e, never had parity. The gap was different by edition and particularly by level of the party, but, the gap was always, always there. Casters start out weaker but very quickly surpass the non-casters in every edition. I mean, let's take the "hold the metal in the forge" example that's been bounced around here.

We're arguing that our 15th level+ non magical character might or might not be able to do it. Depends on the DM.

A 1st level wizard can do it with Mage Hand. No chance of failure, no resources spent.

For some, this is just how D&D is and that's okay. For others, this is a huge proud nail and bugs the crap out of them.

Lanefan · Nov 10, 2018

Hussar said:
... at its heart, D&D is a wargame. And you don't want one-shots in war-games because it's no fun...

As a common thing one-shots - for or against the PCs - are a bad idea once beyond the very low levels. As an occasional spectacular exception that the players will talk about for years, though? Sure! Bring it on!

Lan-"and this right here is the base rationale behind every critical hit system ever made"-efan

Shasarak · Nov 10, 2018

Hussar said:
D&D is notoriously bad at modeling fiction.

Savage Worlds would do the trick nicely though. And, honestly, it should since pulp fiction is Savage World's bread and butter.

Let's be honest here, D&D models D&D and virtually nothing else. Trying to tie things to genre fiction is an exercise in futility. It just doesn't work because, at its heart, D&D is a wargame. And you don't want one-shots in war-games because it's no fun. Genre emulation was never the goal of D&D.

I agree, it does not model fiction very well. Heck the game does not even model DnD fiction well.

Personally I think many of the quotes from Gary can be put down to marketing spin, yes you can totally play Conan, no Halflings are absolutely independent of Lord of the Rings why would you even ask.

It is too far to claim that DnD is a war game though the mechanics do come from war games.

Garthanos · Nov 10, 2018

Lanefan said:
Normally this is true. But in a court-intrugue campaign where the highest-level NPCs ever encountered might be the King's Champion at 10th and the Court Wizard at 9th, a party of 13th-level PCs are going to look pretty god-like.

That is I think exaggeration but yes you probably don't want to make the kings champion a combat challenge unless he has been possessed or some other plot device to change the character dramatically. The Achilles in the movie Troy made a kings champions look like minion class character (because in that story they were)

Shasarak · Nov 10, 2018

Hussar said:
Reading through this thread, I think that you can sum it up with the ages old question - Should there be parity between the caster classes and the non-caster classes?

D&D, outside of 4e, never had parity. The gap was different by edition and particularly by level of the party, but, the gap was always, always there. Casters start out weaker but very quickly surpass the non-casters in every edition. I mean, let's take the "hold the metal in the forge" example that's been bounced around here.

We're arguing that our 15th level+ non magical character might or might not be able to do it. Depends on the DM.

A 1st level wizard can do it with Mage Hand. No chance of failure, no resources spent.

For some, this is just how D&D is and that's okay. For others, this is a huge proud nail and bugs the crap out of them.

Just so I understand correctly, the power that you want a high level Fighter to have, the thing that will give them some kind of parity with the Magic-User, is the ability of holding the Magic-Users stuff in the forge while the Magic-User creates a Magical Item.

And this is the huge proud nail that you want hammered?

Obviously I can not speak for everyone but yeah as far as I am concerned the Fighter can hold as much of the Magic-Users stuff as they want.

Lanefan · Nov 10, 2018

Garthanos said:
That is I think exaggeration but yes you probably don't want to make the kings champion a combat challenge unless he has been possessed or some other plot device to change the character dramatically.

Those NPCs wouldn't necessarily ever be combat challenges, I just threw them in as an indication of the general level of NPC a campaign like that might have - i.e not much.

The Achilles in the movie Troy made a kings champions look like minion class character (because in that story they were)

Yes, and were that a D&D campaign and Achilles a PC in it I would start to think that Achilles had become too big for the (mortal side of the) setting*. This is a serious problem if the mortal part of the setting - as opposed to the immortals and Olympus and all that - is all you ever want to run as DM.

* - never mind that in most normal D&D games there wouldn't just be Achilles; he'd have a whole party backing him up, each of similar power level to his.

Garthanos · Nov 10, 2018

Hussar said:
We're arguing that our 15th level+ non magical character might or might not be able to do it. Depends on the DM.

A 1st level wizard can do it with Mage Hand. No chance of failure, no resources spent.

For some, this is just how D&D is and that's okay. For others, this is a huge proud nail and bugs the crap out of them.

Spank that nail into the wood thank you....

Garthanos · Nov 10, 2018

Lanefan said:
Yes, and were that a D&D campaign and Achilles a PC in it I would start to think that Achilles had become too big for the (mortal side of the) setting*. This is a serious problem if the mortal part of the setting - as opposed to the immortals and Olympus and all that - is all you ever want to run as DM.

Sounds more like a problem of advancement rate I think 3e is when it changed and everyone got this uber fast advancement into their head. The nice thing is that 1e trick is totally portable in every edition at level 6 or 7 ought to be very well defined impressive compared to a noblemans brat if he is a significant story element and interesting spending a good long while before that Champion looked like a chump if the players are enjoying the intrigue it shouldnt matter too much what rate they advance.

D&D 4E Mike Mearls on how D&D 4E could have looked

Shasarak

Banned

Lanefan

Victoria Rules

Hussar

Legend

Lanefan

Victoria Rules

Shasarak

Banned

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight

Shasarak

Banned

Lanefan

Victoria Rules

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight

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