Mike Mearls Discusses Possible Alternate Class Features for the Ranger on Happy Fun Hour 11/20

Jester David said:

If enemies provoke from it. Uncertain how true that will be. Not when they can just kill it and move past.
I don't think the extra damage is comparable to the extra attack from Horde Breaker or Giant Killer. Or even the bonus d8 of Colossus Slayer.

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The key to interpretation of the errata is not look at a single sentence in isolation. It's clear that the animal will defend itself or its master if appropriate. If the ranger is not commanding the beast, it continues to act like a beast. If Rex is commanded to attack the orc, Rex attacks the orc and keeps on attacking, freeing up the ranger to use their own attack.

It's for the DM to decide what the beast does using the same common sense for trained NPC animals. In a vacuum of options, it dodges. If being attacked directly by the target it was commanded to attack, it counter attacks but might flee if injured if not ordered otherwise using the ranger's action. If a different orc is attacking its master, it might go and used the help action instead of fighting the original target. It doesn't necessarily just use Dodge and its reactions. It still has a mind and a will of its own. On that basis, it should represent an occasional damage boost imo.

Li Shenron said:

Yes, I agree, better not to do it at all costs on a class if there is no good idea.

I wouldn't touch iconic and unique features such as Barbarian's Rage and Rogue's Sneak Attack... even smaller stuff like Action Surge and Second Wind should not be removed, otherwise it leaves the Fighter class without its own unique and distinctive features, it would end up being an empty shell of a class.

I would in general like if they at least addressed all classes, and see if there is one non-essential or controversial feature that could have an alternate option. If they provide an alternate for Ranger spellcasting, then quite naturally something similar could be done for Paladins. I'd also consider an alterate to Druid wildshape, even tho this is very iconic, I think the Druid's spells and other nature-related abilities are enough for the class concept to stand up.

It's also true that some classes already have alternate class features, for example we have several possible Fighting Styles, Warlock's Pact Boons, or Sorcerer's Metamagic. So it'd be just as valuable to get a couple more options to choose from for each of those. Maybe even a few more Totem Warrior's animals and Four Element Monk's powers.

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I wouldn't mind a bard that swaps out full spellcasting for half spellcasting and has a bunch of extra bardic tricks.
And I've long said fighters should be able to swap out Action Surge for more complexity, rather than having that decision live in subclasses.

I still suggest just dropping the PH ranger beast rules and replacing with the companion rules from the revised ranger. No other changes needed.

https://www.worldanvil.com/w/alfaysia-skidace/a/beast-companion-rules-article

SkidAce said:

I still suggest just dropping the PH ranger beast rules and replacing with the companion rules from the revised ranger. No other changes needed.

https://www.worldanvil.com/w/alfaysia-skidace/a/beast-companion-rules-article

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Simple, although I'm not 100% in favour of increasing its stats that quickly, it penalises smaller animals, and it does nothing to balance multi attack.

While true, [MENTION=6777422]Pauln6[/MENTION], it seems to play well.

With the ranger gaining the animal at low levels, lack of multi is balanced with the rest of the group. And then as with the standard ranger, at higher levels you can use a bonus action to get another attack from the animal, simulating the training "with" the ranger instead of natural abilities.

In our campaign, I used the mastiff stats (tweaked) as a young owlbear they hatched from a hibernating egg. It has grown with the ranger and is working well for us.

Pauln6 said:

The key to interpretation of the errata is not look at a single sentence in isolation. It's clear that the animal will defend itself or its master if appropriate. If the ranger is not commanding the beast, it continues to act like a beast. If Rex is commanded to attack the orc, Rex attacks the orc and keeps on attacking, freeing up the ranger to use their own attack.

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Ummm... no.
The text is pretty clear that it will defend you if you are "incapacitated or absent" and will take reactions. If you are capacitated and present, it only attacks if you command it.

Pauln6 said:

It's for the DM to decide what the beast does using the same common sense for trained NPC animals. In a vacuum of options, it dodges. If being attacked directly by the target it was commanded to attack, it counter attacks but might flee if injured if not ordered otherwise using the ranger's action. If a different orc is attacking its master, it might go and used the help action instead of fighting the original target. It doesn't necessarily just use Dodge and its reactions. It still has a mind and a will of its own. On that basis, it should represent an occasional damage boost imo.

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That's fine if the DM house rules that. But that reading is still very much an addition to the rules.

The text says:
That's pretty clear. IF you command it, it attacks. IF you do not, it Dodges. It never attacks without your command unless it is making an opportunity attack or you are unable to take actions. It doesn't counterattack. It doesn't keep attacking. It doesn't Help or assist. It Dodges. Period.

So either you make an attack or the beast does. While the beast adds your proficiency bonus to its damage, this will seldom boost it's damage beyond what a ranger could do themselves let alone with the damage bonus from another subclass feature.
The beast does not noticeably increase the damage of the ranger.


As for hit point mitigation... at 6th level it will have 24 hit points. The average damage of a CR 6 cyclops with a thrown rock is 28, and it's club is 19 (but it has two club attacks). Pet is going down. A chimera can also drop it on one turn with its three attacks (two if it rolls well). As can a chasme, vrock, young white dragon, drider, etc. Pretty much every CR 6 can roll over the beast companion in a round. After which, it likely spends its 2-3 d8 Hit Dice to regain maybe 8 to 13 hit points, and is now a single attack away from going down. After which it's gone for the rest of the adventuring day and the ranger now lacks a subclass.
And this is when the beast is at its most effective. Because based on the chart on page 274 of the DMG, monster damage should increase by 5 each CR, while the beast's hp only increases by 4. So at 10th level, it's 5 hit points behind the curve. And at 15th level the expected damage of a monster is now 10 damage beyond the maximum hp of the companion. It's now going down in a single attack from multiattack and the monster is going to just keep going onto the rest of the party.

This is without considering AoEs where it goes down and doesn't take a hit for another party member.

Jester David said:

Ummm... no.
The text is pretty clear that it will defend you if you are "incapacitated or absent" and will take reactions. If you are capacitated and present, it only attacks if you command it.


That's fine if the DM house rules that. But that reading is still very much an addition to the rules.

The text says:

The beast obeys your commands as best as it can. It takes its turn on your initiative. On your turn, you can verbally command the beast where to move (no action required by you). You can use your action to verbally command it to take the Attack, Dash, Disengage, or Help action. If you don’t issue a command, the beast takes the Dodge action. Once you have the Extra Attack feature, you can make one weapon attack yourself when you command the beast to take the Attack action.
If you are incapacitated or absent, the beast acts on its own, focusing on protecting you and itself. The beast never requires your command to use its reaction, such as when making an opportunity attack.​

That's pretty clear. IF you command it, it attacks. IF you do not, it Dodges. It never attacks without your command unless it is making an opportunity attack or you are unable to take actions. It doesn't counterattack. It doesn't keep attacking. It doesn't Help or assist. It Dodges. Period.

So either you make an attack or the beast does. While the beast adds your proficiency bonus to its damage, this will seldom boost it's damage beyond what a ranger could do themselves let alone with the damage bonus from another subclass feature.
The beast does not noticeably increase the damage of the ranger.


As for hit point mitigation... at 6th level it will have 24 hit points. The average damage of a CR 6 cyclops with a thrown rock is 28, and it's club is 19 (but it has two club attacks). Pet is going down. A chimera can also drop it on one turn with its three attacks (two if it rolls well). As can a chasme, vrock, young white dragon, drider, etc. Pretty much every CR 6 can roll over the beast companion in a round. After which, it likely spends its 2-3 d8 Hit Dice to regain maybe 8 to 13 hit points, and is now a single attack away from going down. After which it's gone for the rest of the adventuring day and the ranger now lacks a subclass.
And this is when the beast is at its most effective. Because based on the chart on page 274 of the DMG, monster damage should increase by 5 each CR, while the beast's hp only increases by 4. So at 10th level, it's 5 hit points behind the curve. And at 15th level the expected damage of a monster is now 10 damage beyond the maximum hp of the companion. It's now going down in a single attack from multiattack and the monster is going to just keep going onto the rest of the party.

This is without considering AoEs where it goes down and doesn't take a hit for another party member.

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Yes, I suppose it's in the interpretation of issuing a command and how long that command stays in effect. They removed the phrase that said it doesn't take an action unless you command it but they retained the definition of a command being required to attack.

I'm not in favour of technical language overruling common sense. If a handler commands a trained animal to attack someone, it will continue to attack until commanded it to stop or until it is hurt and decides to retreat. Once commanded, the beast should follow that command until it can't any more. At that point it takes the Dodge action until issued a fresh command.

I feel sorry for anyone whose DM can't see that is the most common sense interpretation. Like you say, the animal won't stay conscious for long so it's just a flavourful damage spike like paladins burning spell slots.

I have added house rules to beastmaster (the beast shares the effect of Hunter's Mark and the ranger gets the Revivify Beast class feature to burn a spell slot to cast a Revivify spell on a dead beast companion, and at level 7, I added advantage on the beast's saves if it fan see the ranger) but I would not consider my interpretation of the duration of a command to be a house rule. It's common sense. ;-p

I've never liked the idea that it takes a full action to command a beast, because I feel like that's something that should just take a couple words and/or a gesture. It's nothing as potent as a casting a spell or the footwork and energy required for an attack.

For that reason, in my campaign world, I made commanding a trained/bonded animal companion a bonus action. The companion continues with what ever action was commanded until their opponent is knocked unconscious or the companion receives a new command. They act as an animal, so complex tactics don't occur.

Pauln6 said:

Yes, I suppose it's in the interpretation of issuing a command and how long that command stays in effect. They removed the phrase that said it doesn't take an action unless you command it but they retained the definition of a command being required to attack.

I'm not in favour of technical language overruling common sense. If a handler commands a trained animal to attack someone, it will continue to attack until commanded it to stop or until it is hurt and decides to retreat. Once commanded, the beast should follow that command until it can't any more. At that point it takes the Dodge action until issued a fresh command.

I feel sorry for anyone whose DM can't see that is the most common sense interpretation. Like you say, the animal won't stay conscious for long so it's just a flavourful damage spike like paladins burning spell slots.

I have added house rules to beastmaster (the beast shares the effect of Hunter's Mark and the ranger gets the Revivify Beast class feature to burn a spell slot to cast a Revivify spell on a dead beast companion, and at level 7, I added advantage on the beast's saves if it fan see the ranger) but I would not consider my interpretation of the duration of a command to be a house rule. It's common sense. ;-p

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"On your turn, you can verbally command the beast where to move (no action required by you). You can use your action to verbally command it to take the Attack, Dash, Disengage, or Help action. If you don’t issue a command, the beast takes the Dodge action. Once you have the Extra Attack feature, you can make one weapon attack yourself when you command the beast to take the Attack action."

Oddly in rules lawyer GM mode I will note the following;

If you command it to move, you have issued a command and so the auto-dodge clause is null and void.

"You can spend your action to command" is not the same as saying "it can only do these if commanded." especially with exceptions.

No I do not believe it's the intent - but they hang rulings on less all the time.

But regardless, I see nothing here that prevents the beast from taking the hide or search actions on it's own when you are there and not commanding an action.

So in theory you could send it into hiding spot and it hides on its oen.

My biggest problem with BM sub is its non-npc status which tries to limit it to not being managed as an NPC run by the GM with some command/override options available to the ranger.

5ekyu said:

"On your turn, you can verbally command the beast where to move (no action required by you). You can use your action to verbally command it to take the Attack, Dash, Disengage, or Help action. If you don’t issue a command, the beast takes the Dodge action. Once you have the Extra Attack feature, you can make one weapon attack yourself when you command the beast to take the Attack action."

Oddly in rules lawyer GM mode I will note the following;

If you command it to move, you have issued a command and so the auto-dodge clause is null and void.

"You can spend your action to command" is not the same as saying "it can only do these if commanded." especially with exceptions.

No I do not believe it's the intent - but they hang rulings on less all the time.

But regardless, I see nothing here that prevents the beast from taking the hide or search actions on it's own when you are there and not commanding an action.

So in theory you could send it into hiding spot and it hides on its oen.

My biggest problem with BM sub is its non-npc status which tries to limit it to not being managed as an NPC run by the GM with some command/override options available to the ranger.

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There is also the question of the definition of 'absent'. If it is intended to be equivalent to incapacitated i.e. when the ranger is incapable of giving commands, it doesn't specify that.

But it's moot for me. We don't play in official games and I will certainly play beast companions as following commands until they can't or are too scared to do so.