Ridding Elves and Half-Elves of Darkvision

epithet said:

I think you'll find that the D&D 5e vision rules are a simplified version of the d20 vision rules.

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Welcome to the discussion. By browsing past posts you will realize I am well aware how the rules work, what exact changes were made, and how I detest these changes, and have come up with easy suggestions how to fix the problems that 5E have created!

epithet said:

I think you'll find that the D&D 5e vision rules are a simplified version of the d20 vision rules. Darkvision and low-light vision have been combined, and 5e darkvision now only provides dim-light vision in total darkness, but it gives a more logical "twice as good" vision in dim light compared to the "twice as far" d20 low-light vision.

The light categories are almost the same, but renamed. The "bright light" of d20 is "daylight" in 5e, while d20 "normal light" is called "bright light" in 5e.

Perhaps if you were to point out the "real cause" I might be better able to see how using the d20 vision rules offer an "easy fix." I suppose I might be limited by the fact that I don't see the 5e vision rules, including elven darkvision, as being a problem in the first place.

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Well said all around. And absolutely true. Going back to 3e would be regression, not improvement, and absolutely not a fix for a problem that doesn’t even really exist.

CapnZapp said:

Welcome to the discussion. By browsing past posts you will realize I am well aware how the rules work, what exact changes were made, and how I detest these changes, and have come up with easy suggestions how to fix the problems that 5E have created!

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I've been here for a few pages, enough to see you bounce around between a couple of different "issues." Your biggest issue seems to be that the current rules don't go far enough in making a party use torches. You really seem to like torches, a lot. What you haven't done is to explain why everyone should be using torches, or rather why the game should encourage everyone to use torches beyond what it already does. I mean, if you want to see clearly and in color you'll need a light source, but it really seems to bother you that 5e doesn't go farther to promote torch sales.

Your other issue, as far as I can tell, is that creatures that ought to have superior night vision, like owls, don't. They've been lumped together with everyone else under the "darkvision" umbrella. While that is somewhat true, it isn't quite the problem that you make it out to be. An owl has the "Keen Hearing and Sight" trait, meaning that it has advantage on perception that offsets the disadvantage from dim light, so an owl can see "normally" in those circumstances beyond 120 ft. and has its advantage back within 120 ft. Even in pitch black darkness, the owl can see out to 120 ft. as well as a human can on a clear summer day, because the keen sight makes up for the effectively dim lighting condition from the darkvision.

Ultimately, though, these are just the mechanical tools provided to help a DM resolve things like hiding. There is no rule system (including 3e/PF/d20) that will do a good job of determining what an owl or an eagle can see, what a dog can smell, or even what a dragon can hear. That's always, under any system, going to fall on you to make a ruling on. One of the reasons I like 5e better than Pathfinder is that 5e doesn't attempt the level of granularity that 3e and its family codified, so it becomes easier to spot things that should just be hand-waved or excepted from the standard application.

If you like that level of simulationist detail, though, why not just play Pathfinder?

To the respondents ironically being pompous whilst at the same time as accusing others of doing so.

Please read your own posts before denying things you have just said. You haven't yet proven any point in support of your contention that darkvision isn't too common in 5th Edition.

Other people DO understand the game and the issues, and stating that they don't actually illustrates your own lack of comprehension of what they are saying. Either that or you are trying to muddy the water to score points with those thread readers unprepared to review the thread as a whole.

Just because some do not agree with does not means that they should go away and play another game. How dismissive of you to suggest they should.

Caliburn101 said:

To the respondents ironically being pompous whilst at the same time as accusing others of doing so.

Please read your own posts before denying things you have just said. You haven't yet proven any point in support of your contention that darkvision isn't too common in 5th Edition.

Other people DO understand the game and the issues, and stating that they don't actually illustrates your own lack of comprehension of what they are saying. Either that or you are trying to muddy the water to score points with those thread readers unprepared to review the thread as a whole.

Just because some do not agree with does not means that they should go away and play another game. How dismissive of you to suggest they should.

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Hear, hear.

Caliburn101 said:

To the respondents ironically being pompous whilst at the same time as accusing others of doing so.

Please read your own posts before denying things you have just said. You haven't yet proven any point in support of your contention that darkvision isn't too common in 5th Edition.

Other people DO understand the game and the issues, and stating that they don't actually illustrates your own lack of comprehension of what they are saying. Either that or you are trying to muddy the water to score points with those thread readers unprepared to review the thread as a whole.

Just because some do not agree with does not means that they should go away and play another game. How dismissive of you to suggest they should.

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I wasn't suggesting that anyone should go away and play another game, just that if you like granular detail and having a handful of different "see in the dark" abilities, you're likely to be often at odds with the 5e design philosophies, and Pathfinder is a good game if you enjoy specificity. That's not being dismissive.

I'm not contending the "darkvision isn't too common" in 5e, that would be an odd thing to actively assert. A couple of folks are insisting that the number of races with darkvision, or in the alternative darkvision in general, is a big problem in 5e. My response is simply that it isn't a problem for me, and I don't actually see how it is a problem for them, or in general. It's not on me to prove anything, and to the very limited extent that those complaining of a darkvision problem have offered anything to support their position I have found it unpersuasive and sometimes inaccurate.

epithet said:

I've been here for a few pages, enough to see you bounce around between a couple of different "issues."

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I know you have been around. But when you treat me to a complete newbie's introduction to the basic rules, that's what you get in return.

I don't bounce around.

My aim is crystal clear - too many races get Darkvision in 5E. Full stop.

Everything else follows from this. Even the torches, which I don't particularly like.

Once you understand how vulnerable torches makes you (assuming a night or underdark campaign as I've stated many times along the way), you realize that a no-light party can easily trivialize too much content. Yes, D&D assumes you have light sources, and many encounters depend on that. When you don't I can't rationalize monsters still finding the adventurers. Remember, 5E already makes characters super skilled compared to monsters. As you rise in levels, it becomes literally impossible for monsters to stage ambushes successfully, and if you then add "but how did they even spot us, we don't carry any light", it simply falls apart. (Or rather, it's one rules-related nuisance you'd rather not have to worry about)

The basic assumption behind "the darkness is scary" is that you can't see in it. This falls apart when Elves have darkvision, because you can too-easily create an all-darkness party. Sure, an all-Dwarf party could always see in the dark, but that's okay - after all, they're all Dwarves, and used to caves and dark passages.

So it isn't that I like torches. I do feel, however, that "light management" is an quintessential part of low-level D&D challenges. But 5E makes it too easy to avoid. A crafty player (like mine) will definitely tweak his character concept from human to half-elf if that allows everyone in the group to "go dark".

Being asked to change your human race into some monstrous race like Orc or Tiefling is a big step to take. But when Gnomes and Half-Elves allow you to extinguish your torches, it becomes too easy.

The upsides of 5E vision are touted as "it's simpler". But the downsides are far worse. And it's not like vision was too difficult before - your comparison to Pathfinder is ridiculous, as if pre-5E vision was somehow even close to that nightmare of petty modifiers and complicated NPC writeups?

So in the end analysis, I encourage everyone to not go along with 5E's decision to make vision so simple it's stupid. Thank you.

I suppose I'm thinking of an all-darkvision party creeping through the underdark seeing as if in dim light, moving across rough terrain, through an area where the predators know the paths and there is a mile of stone in any direction other than ahead or behind you. They can hear their footsteps echo, they know everything down there can smell them.

I just really don't see that as a great advantage over shining a light.

James Grover said:

But, it got me thinking: why do certain races get it and others don't?

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I assume it depends on whether the "story" envisaged for each race calls for it in the eyes of the designers. If dragonborn have a narrative association with darkness in your campaign, that would be a good reason to add darkvision. If balance between races is a concern, you could remove their damage resistance or one of their language proficiencies in exchange.

James Grover said:

And why would the other Elf races and Half-Elf get it? There is no reason why except for a hold-over from earlier editions IMO.

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Actually, elves live underground in many traditional and fantasy fiction depictions of them. In J. R. R. Tolkien's Middle-earth, for example, the elves of Mirkwood live in a cave, as do those of Menegroth and Nargothrond. Their origin in the Ages of Stars, before the rising of the sun, however, is probably the best support in the works of Tolkien for elves having darkvision.

If you remove darkvision from a race, and you want it to stay balanced with other races, I would suggest adding a situational advantage to one type of save, resistance to one form of damage, or an extra language or tool proficiency.

Hriston said:

I assume it depends on whether the "story" envisaged for each race calls for it in the eyes of the designers. If dragonborn have a narrative association with darkness in your campaign, that would be a good reason to add darkvision. If balance between races is a concern, you could remove their damage resistance or one of their language proficiencies in exchange.

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Story is part of it, of course. That's why I decided Dragonborn should have Darkvision.

Actually, elves live underground in many traditional and fantasy fiction depictions of them. In J. R. R. Tolkien's Middle-earth, for example, the elves of Mirkwood live in a cave, as do those of Menegroth and Nargothrond. Their origin in the Ages of Stars, before the rising of the sun, however, is probably the best support in the works of Tolkien for elves having darkvision.

If you remove darkvision from a race, and you want it to stay balanced with other races, I would suggest adding a situational advantage to one type of save, resistance to one form of damage, or an extra language or tool proficiency.

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But, and to be honest this bothers me even a bit with non-Duergar Dwarves, "underground" Elves, such as in Mirkwood, have lights everywhere! In prior versions of enhanced vision, light ruins its ability in many ways, so that is my take on it here. I know 5E simplified many things, so there are no rule mechanics to reflect this, but for me the feel of the ability should still deal with adjustment somehow.

While I will probably remove Darkvision from elves, the Moonsight (or whatever I called it in an earlier post) will be gained. So, they still gain some benefit to enhanced vision, and with everything else they get I feel that is enough.