D&D 5E Sorcerer Vs Wizard And Why its Closer Than You Think

Sword of Spirit said:

A thought experiment.

What would be the effect on balance if sorcerer's got Arcane Recovery (call it "Sorcerous Recovery" but make it work identically to Arcane recovery), Metamagic costs no Sorcery Points, and they in fact didn't have Sorcery Points at all. For the moment, pretend that class abilities that cost sorcery points are either free (if they cost 1 sorcery point) or can be used, say, 1/short rest or Cha mod per day for the more expensive ones.

Now they have the same number of spell slots as wizards, subclasses that are similar to wizards (I might give the overall subclass power edge to wizards, but it doesn't stand out as huge), and a class feature that gives them 2 to 4 special abilities they can apply to their spells.

How would the balance feel on that?

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The wizard still feels superior. He still has Ritual Casting -which the Sorcerer can't take without essentially giving up what it means to be a sorcerer*- more spells prepared than the sorcerer can know and a bigger spell list that save for certain exceptions -like enhance ability- is a superset of the sorcerer's. At high levels the wizard outright gets at-will 1st and second level spells.

This is why -for myself- variant human divine soul is the only really viable pure sorcerer build. Two additional spells known and access to stuff like silence, curse, and antimagic field do make a huge difference. You don't even have to be a healer, wasting a 6th level ability can be a downer, but since it costs sorcery points I consider it a fair price for having actual utility. Maybe if I could stand being a blaster I would feel better about Dragon Sorcerer, but overall I consider the ability to Nova spectacularly a bug not a feature, and a terrible design choice all around. Like look I've just spent all of my daily resources in order to avoid being a liability for this one combat, now I go back to being a hindrance to the party for the rest of the day, hurrah being a sorcerer is awesome -_-.

* Yeah, look how much magic incarnate I am, I paid a feat to be stuck with an inferior version of what non-magical people can use for free.

Sword of Spirit said:

A thought experiment.

What would be the effect on balance if sorcerers got Arcane Recovery (call it "Sorcerous Recovery" but make it work identically to Arcane recovery), Metamagic costs no Sorcery Points, and they in fact didn't have Sorcery Points at all. For the moment, pretend that class abilities that cost sorcery points are either free (if they cost 1 sorcery point) or can be used, say, 1/short rest or Cha mod per day for the more expensive ones.

Now they have the same number of spell slots as wizards, subclasses that are similar to wizards (I might give the overall subclass power edge to wizards, but it doesn't stand out as huge), and a class feature that gives them 2 to 4 special abilities they can apply to their spells.

How would the balance feel on that?

Click to expand...

I would say let all mm uses be 1/SR and then let each origin sub-class feature allow a specific one more often **and** give you that one free. So, one from your origin at 2nd level, then two at 3rd of your choice, and more uses of the origin one at higher levels.

But I really think each origin needs to give you a cantrip and the usual two set always known at 1st 3rd 5th 7th 9th.

I would not go with the recovery then as these help establish a heavy origin theme and a heavier short rest bias that puts you well between wizard and warlock.

Maybe someone who'd like to remove sorcery point could replace features that uses SP and give them features taken from the lore wizard UA, using spellslot to add extra effects.

lvl 1: spellcasting, sorcereous origin
lvl 2: Font of Magic (removed), UA Spell Secret (added), Sorcerous Recovery (aka arcane recovery)x1/LR
lvl3: Metamagic (removed), Alchemical Casting (added)
lvl 10: Metamagic (removed), Sorcerous Recovery x2/LR (OR Spell eater: when cast spell, gain THP equal 2x spell level. Gain dispel magic, recover HP 2x dispeled spell level. Can spend charge from magic item to recover HP 2x charged spell level)
lvl 17: Metamagic (removed) Master of Magic (added)
lvl 20: Sorcerous restoraction (removed), Sorcerous recovery x3/LR

I think I'll try that should a player decide to play a sorcerer.

It's pretty ridiculous that many people here overrate the Wizards's utility and underrate Sorcerer's metamagic for some really dumb reasons.
In my (superior) opinion, Wizards and Sorcerers are equal, they can both do different things that can't be compared properly, and they should compliment each other in a party together instead of arguing to each other about who's superior like in these imbecilic internet forms.
Plus: If you are really gonna complain about the limited spell list so god dang much, then just ask the DM to make the Sorcerer's number of spells known equal to the Bard's number. It's that freaking simple people.

Oliver Xu said:

It's pretty ridiculous that many people here overrate the Wizards's utility and underrate Sorcerer's metamagic for some really dumb reasons.
In my (superior) opinion, Wizards and Sorcerers are equal, they can both do different things that can't be compared properly, and they should compliment each other in a party together instead of arguing to each other about who's superior like in these imbecilic internet forms.
Plus: If you are really gonna complain about the limited spell list so god dang much, then just ask the DM to make the Sorcerer's number of spells known equal to the Bard's number. It's that freaking simple people.

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No one ever thought of houserules before. [/snark]

Look, yelling at people to change rules when the point of the discussion is to examine the rules as they are written is not constructive. You haven't stumbled one some new truth everyone else has missed.

There is some underrated utility in the Sorcerer class in Social Interaction pillar games. Obviously as a CHA character the Sorcerer will tend to be better at the skill side of things, but I'm more indexing Subtle Spell. Casting in social situations without permission is generally a no-no but the Sorcerer is way better equipped to manage it than the Wizard. Metamagic also does a really nice job buffing control spells in various ways, which is also great for SIP games. Not a huge thing, but in a campaign where it matters, it matters a lot.

I know we aren't really talking about MC here, but dipping 3 in Warlock for Tome and Book of Shadows really does close the overall utility gap between Sorcerer and Wizard a lot.

Regarding metamagic:

Yes, the implementation is boring since you take Quicken and Twin and then you basically couldn't care less about the rest.

But the notion you have too few metamagic points is entirely based on low-level play. Once you reach the higher levels, the number of Sorcery points explode.

Why? Since you have a load of low-level slots you convert into SPs. You have more spell slots than you can use on average. My Sorcerer player never ran out of Sorcery Points past a certain level (if I had to guess I would say level 12).

Returning to the original point:

Sorcerer Vs Wizard And Why its Closer Than You Think

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The main reason Sorcerers are "closer than you think" is that a high level Sorcerer can burn through a truckload of Sorcery Points very quickly. The OP's points might also apply, but mainly the difference between a Sorcerer and a Wizard is spelled twin and quicken.

That it ultimately is much more satisfying to play a Wizard, or that once you've played that awesome Red Draconic Sorcerer the class has little else going for it (talking about PHB content here), doesn't come into this.

Some reasons why Wizards are somewhat overrated compared to Sorcerers:

1) The difference in spells prepared versus spells known isn't actually that large. From levels 1-11 (i.e. the majority of most games), the difference is the wizard's Int mod - 1. (Wizards get Level + Int mod, Sorcerers get Level +1). An extra 2 to 4 spells is noticeable, but it's not an overwhelming difference.

2) One of the wizard's better features is the ability to cast rituals directly from their spellbook without prepping. Which means to maximize that feature, you want the difference between your spellbook limit and your spell prepped limit to be predominantly rituals. To maximize the wizard's flexibility at swapping spells at a long rest means having less rituals. Two of their stronger features are inherently in tension.

3) Long rests don't actually happen that often compared to leveling. This is DM dependent, but if you follow the DMG XP rules and the 6-8 encounters per long rest guidelines, you'll level probably every 2 long rests, 3 at the most. The sorcerer gets 2 new spells every level (1 gained, 1 swapped), which is just as much high level flexibility as a wizard has (which also gains 2 new max level spells every level).

4) The difference between the Wizard and Sorcerer is more about volume than quality. Wizards gets a lot of interesting rituals and some good exploration spells, but there aren't a lot of top-tier spells that are wizard specific. Maybe Simulacrum, but that's high level and already problematic.

MoonSong said:

The wizard still feels superior. He still has Ritual Casting -which the Sorcerer can't take without essentially giving up what it means to be a sorcerer*- more spells prepared than the sorcerer can know and a bigger spell list that save for certain exceptions -like enhance ability- is a superset of the sorcerer's. At high levels the wizard outright gets at-will 1st and second level spells.

This is why -for myself- variant human divine soul is the only really viable pure sorcerer build. Two additional spells known and access to stuff like silence, curse, and antimagic field do make a huge difference. You don't even have to be a healer, wasting a 6th level ability can be a downer, but since it costs sorcery points I consider it a fair price for having actual utility. Maybe if I could stand being a blaster I would feel better about Dragon Sorcerer, but overall I consider the ability to Nova spectacularly a bug not a feature, and a terrible design choice all around. Like look I've just spent all of my daily resources in order to avoid being a liability for this one combat, now I go back to being a hindrance to the party for the rest of the day, hurrah being a sorcerer is awesome -_-.

* Yeah, look how much magic incarnate I am, I paid a feat to be stuck with an inferior version of what non-magical people can use for free.

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Shadow Magic Sorcerer is also very powerful, and honestly is likely the most dangerous/powerful subclass in the game at high levels, period.

Dragon Sorcerer not as powerful as Shadow Magic,
but good blaster at lower levels, and at higher levels it's features give it versitility without resorting to spells such as at will flight, and Dragon Awe. Also with Booming Blade and Greenflame Blade Cantrips can be a descent Gish.

Wild Magic is just really weird and Chaotic, but it can be extremely powerful, at the price of being very unpredictable and the least safe subclass.

Storm Sorcerer goes really well with Thunderous Step and some other MTOFs.

One also should remember that metamagic and cantrips can be combined to create effects as good as first level spells.

And spending a feat on Ritual Casting is worth it, it can be used with Metamagic. Sublte Spell (preferred ritual) can allow you to cast rituals without anyone knowing your doing it, so publicly, without raising questions, something the Wizard can't do.

CapnZapp said:

Regarding metamagic:

Yes, the implementation is boring since you take Quicken and Twin and then you basically couldn't care less about the rest.

But the notion you have too few metamagic points is entirely based on low-level play. Once you reach the higher levels, the number of Sorcery points explode.

Why? Since you have a load of low-level slots you convert into SPs. You have more spell slots than you can use on average. My Sorcerer player never ran out of Sorcery Points past a certain level (if I had to guess I would say level 12).

Returning to the original point:

The main reason Sorcerers are "closer than you think" is that a high level Sorcerer can burn through a truckload of Sorcery Points very quickly. The OP's points might also apply, but mainly the difference between a Sorcerer and a Wizard is spelled twin and quicken.

That it ultimately is much more satisfying to play a Wizard, or that once you've played that awesome Red Draconic Sorcerer the class has little else going for it (talking about PHB content here), doesn't come into this.

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I've heard that Wild Sorcerer's can be really fun with the right allies and DM.