5E Sorcerer Vs Wizard And Why its Closer Than You Think - Page 12
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  1. #111
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    Grandfather of Assassins (Lvl 19)

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    Wow, what's up with all the thread necromancy in the last couple days?

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwarok View Post
    It's the lack of versatility. If you have the spells, you can load the exact same thing any sorcerer can, which is almost certainly going to be aimed at combat functionality. How many sorcerers are going to have a long repertoire of divination spells? Contact Other Plane is awesome, as is Legend Lore. As is Scry. Seems to me everyone talking about how people don't get why Sorcerers are good is simply asking some variation on "what if we dropped them both in an arena, who would win?". Which is one part of the game. But in a big campaign world, a well done one, not unlike the real world, it's about knowing what you are getting into first that allows you to bring the right tools to deal with it. Once all the research is done, then you can hat up and go in guns blazing.

    But what about other spell combinations? I tried to make a single guy that could work his way through a deathtrap dungeon. He ended up being a necro with Investigation, Perception, Observant feat. He makes undead, sends them in to scout. Has them followed with an Arcane Eye. He has detect magic up. He sees what they see and what kills them. Assuming he's 15th level, he'd have Clone and Simulacrum, two spells I doubt any Sorcerer would ever get since they are so situational. But that means you have a duplicate of yourself at your side, who can at least blast away with cantrips forever, take hits for you, and assist on any skill checks(what an apprentice!). Also, if you die, you don't really die. You use those VERY specific spells, them put them aside for more practical ones until you need them again.

    Teleportation circle? Any Sorcerer ever going to get that? Probably not. But a wizard would, and assuming you spend a few years in game time, you've got yourself a new network of rapid transit you made and you know about. A 15th caster also has access to 8th level spells. If that was me, I'd be using it to summon and bind elementals. Using a 6th level slot, you summon Invisible Stalkers. Use a 4th level slot make a circle that lasts 2 hours. Then use an 8th Planar Binding to enslave it for 6 months. Or even 1 month if you just want to use a 7th level. Even at 11th level you can use a 6th level slot to bind CR 5 elementals for a week. That's pretty nice. You'll have have a small army of loyal servants to carry out your business. Collect as many as you can or want given those constraints, then when it's game time you swap out to fireball, shield, whatever you want. You can have Dispel AND Counterspell. Also, you can use your divinations to increase the likelyhood you select the right spells for the job before you get to it. If you're smart. Do we need to see in the dark, do we need illusions? Wizards can do it all, and anyone who thinks that isn't amazing is nuts.

    Anyways, you might notice I haven't even gotten to the specific type of wizard you are yet, because frankly just the ability to swap out spells and have access to ALL of them potentially, is awesome enough. The rest is just bonus. If you're looking for best in a fight, I'm pretty sure you're going with either Abjurer or Diviner, but any will do frankly. I would not play a sorcerer unless all I wanted to do was blow things up or had a DM that thinks that is all the game is about.

    A lot of those spells, especially high level ones like clone, come online for the sorc later with the wish spell. It's delayed instead of unavailable.

    I can and do fit in a divination or two but the fact is the class isn't designed to be as versatile as the wizard. It's designed to be focussed.

    Gathering information is also based on CHA so the approach is different but the end result tends to be the same. Listing spells not required for a party to succeed doesn't show a huge gap.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzy View Post
    Wow, what's up with all the thread necromancy in the last couple days?
    A sorcerer just leveled, and got a new spell.
    Laugh gyor, Azzy, Tony Vargas laughed with this post

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashrym View Post
    A lot of those spells, especially high level ones like clone, come online for the sorc later with the wish spell. It's delayed instead of unavailable.

    I can and do fit in a divination or two but the fact is the class isn't designed to be as versatile as the wizard. It's designed to be focussed.

    Gathering information is also based on CHA so the approach is different but the end result tends to be the same. Listing spells not required for a party to succeed doesn't show a huge gap.
    The two spells I wish were available for the Sorcerer are Illusionary Dragon and True Polymorph. ID ties in with Dragon Sorcerers and Shadow Sorcerers, maybe even some Divine Souls. True Polymorph would allow a Dragon Sorcerer to become a Dragon, a Divine Soul an Angel, a Shadow Sorcerer a Nightwalker, a Storm Sorcerer a Storm Giant, a Wild Sorcerer a Slaad or Fey. Or CR compatible version of this idea.

    But at least Wish can fill this role for ID. Still the lack of True Polymorph hurts.

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by gyor View Post
    And spending a feat on Ritual Casting is worth it, it can be used with Metamagic. Sublte Spell (preferred ritual) can allow you to cast rituals without anyone knowing your doing it, so publicly, without raising questions, something the Wizard can't do.
    Taking the Ritual Caster feat is a capitulation, it means giving up the most essential part of what means to be a sorcerer. The in world description of a sorcerer is a magical creature in (demi)human form, there is no room for a book in there. If you take Ritual Caster you are a wizard period. Maybe some people don't care about the flavor of what it means to be a sorcerer, but a sorcerer isn't just mechanics alone.

    Also, even if you could apply subtle spell to a ritual, you are still ten minutes in a same spot with a very open ritual book, which anybody can clearly see is not a normal book.
    Last edited by MoonSong; Wednesday, 5th June, 2019 at 01:56 AM.

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoSix View Post
    Hey, that's not true. You could also have a brass dragon as an ancestor.
    Lol

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonSong View Post
    Taking the Ritual Caster feat is a capitulation, it means giving up the most essential part of what means to be a sorcerer. The in world description of a sorcerer is a magical creature in (demi)human form, there is no room for a book in there. If you take Ritual Caster you are a wizard period. Maybe some people don't care about the flavor of what it means to be a sorcerer, but a sorcerer isn't just mechanics alone.

    Also, even if you could apply subtle spell to a ritual, you are still ten minutes in a same spot with a very open ritual book, which anybody can clearly see is not a normal book.
    You don't give it up, or Sorcerer magic is still there, you just add to it. You don't need to do it, ita just an option.

    Another one if your an elf are the magical racial feats from the XGTE.
    XP cbwjm gave XP for this post

  8. #118
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    Are we talking rules or feels here? Ritual casting does exactly what it says on the tin and closes the utility gap nicely. The fact that it ruffles someone's fluff sensibities isn't terribly important. No particular offense meant to Moonsong.

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris-77 View Post
    Are we talking rules or feels here? Ritual casting does exactly what it says on the tin and closes the utility gap nicely. The fact that it ruffles someone's fluff sensibities isn't terribly important. No particular offense meant to Moonsong.
    It's still a patch, and not a good one like Divine Soul/Shadow Magic (it costs a feat/ASI). Ritual Caster is a good feat on itself -it obviously closes the utility gap-, but it shouldn't be taken into account when weighting class against class. I mean, give ritual caster to a Champion Fighter, that particular fighter gets utility on par with a wizard. Would you say that because of Ritual Caster the fighter class has good utility?
    Last edited by MoonSong; Wednesday, 5th June, 2019 at 03:35 PM.

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonSong View Post
    It's still a patch, and not a good one like Divine Soul/Shadow Magic (it costs a feat/ASI). Ritual Caster is a good feat on itself -it obviously closes the utility gap-, but it shouldn't be taken into account when weighting class against class. I mean, give ritual caster to a Champion Fighter, that particular fighter gets utility on par with a wizard. Would you say that because of Ritual Caster the fighter class has good utility?
    It's a fine patch, you just don't like the feel of it - which is fine btw, but how much you appreciate the feel of it doesn't change the effectiveness. The feat specifically addresses a key complaint about the Sorcerer class relating to spell knowledge and utility casting (which you agree is true). The fact that other classes can take it doesn't make any difference though, and that Champion doesn't cast other spells, so to say his utility is on par with the Wizard's is disingenuous.

    If you specifically don't want to include feats that's certainly one way to talk about the issue, but in general the talk on this site about builds assumes access to feats, which makes feats a reasonable thing to come up in a conversation of the type we're having.

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