D&D 5E yes, this again: Fighters need more non-combat options

I am taking full responsibility that I am beating a dead horse.

I am in the camp that Fighters could use something else in the social or exploration category. I won't die on a hill for it but I see the need.

Anyway, I'm bringing this up because during our last session, of the players said he felt like he didn't have much to do out of combat. While my bard and the warlock were sneaking and scouting, listening at doors, searching bookshelves, and translating tomes, he was looking for options to contribute. In another group we play in, this player is a wizard and feels like he has more versatility in and out of combat.

I know what the replies will be: use your background skills, role-play your character, you can skill use skills you aren't proficient in, etc. I get it, I really do. And I don't disagree. But that hasn't been enough to fully convince me Fighters wouldn't do well with something else.

So while I was looking at the PHB this morning, I had a thought: what if the Champion's Remarkable Athlete and the Battle Master's Know Your Enemy were part of the base Fighter progression?

First of all, that Remarkable Athlete is the 7th level Champion ability is ridiculous. It feels like a bad feat, or at least combined with the Athlete feat. I could also see any of the martial classes having access to an ability like this.

Second, Know Your Enemy is extremely iconic for the warrior archetype. Sizing up your opponent has many references in movies, literature, etc. It's also something unique to the fighter from the other classes.

These would give the base fighter an additional option in both the social and exploration areas.

Neither of these abilities is a "balance" issue in my mind per se. They do give the fighter more trinkets and I know one of the goals of the fighter is simplicity so I guess that could be a thing. *shrugs*

Anyway, just sharing some quick thoughts!

My favorite fighter is the UA Scout Fighter. Being able to add half a proficiency die roll to Athletics, Nature, Perception, Stealth, or Survival checks was a neat way to interact with the exploration pillar.

I would like to see the idea revisited.

*Deleted by user*

GlassJaw said:

Anyway, I'm bringing this up because during our last session, of the players said he felt like he didn't have much to do out of combat. While my bard and the warlock were sneaking and scouting, listening at doors, searching bookshelves, and translating tomes, he was looking for options to contribute. In another group we play in, this player is a wizard and feels like he has more versatility in and out of combat.

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One of my favorite PCs is a halfling fighter with the criminal background and skulker feats. He is one of the best contributors out of combat, because he acts as the scout/thief. Which makes sense, because he's the 5e version of my 1e character who was a F/T multiclassed halfling there. I play him literally the same way.

So basically, do what lowkey13 said.

What was the warlock and doing that made them a better scout/stealth character then the fighter? If you take skills to interact with the environment or on a social level then you can do so just like anyone else.

GlassJaw said:

I am taking full responsibility that I am beating a dead horse.

I am in the camp that Fighters could use something else in the social or exploration category. I won't die on a hill for it but I see the need.

Anyway, I'm bringing this up because during our last session, of the players said he felt like he didn't have much to do out of combat. While my bard and the warlock were sneaking and scouting, listening at doors, searching bookshelves, and translating tomes, he was looking for options to contribute. In another group we play in, this player is a wizard and feels like he has more versatility in and out of combat.

I know what the replies will be: use your background skills, role-play your character, you can skill use skills you aren't proficient in, etc. I get it, I really do. And I don't disagree. But that hasn't been enough to fully convince me Fighters wouldn't do well with something else.

So while I was looking at the PHB this morning, I had a thought: what if the Champion's Remarkable Athlete and the Battle Master's Know Your Enemy were part of the base Fighter progression?

First of all, that Remarkable Athlete is the 7th level Champion ability is ridiculous. It feels like a bad feat, or at least combined with the Athlete feat. I could also see any of the martial classes having access to an ability like this.

Second, Know Your Enemy is extremely iconic for the warrior archetype. Sizing up your opponent has many references in movies, literature, etc. It's also something unique to the fighter from the other classes.

These would give the base fighter an additional option in both the social and exploration areas.

Neither of these abilities is a "balance" issue in my mind per se. They do give the fighter more trinkets and I know one of the goals of the fighter is simplicity so I guess that could be a thing. *shrugs*

Anyway, just sharing some quick thoughts!

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Some quick thoughts.

First, I agree that the Fighter could use a bit more. I have done things like giving Fighters a third skill, and it works okay, but it's not terribly interesting. I've thought about giving them Jack of All Trades, because I don't consider it necessary for Bards to feel unique and cool, but I'd still rather give them something that only Fighters get, because outside of combat, they get nothing that feels reasonably unique. I like 5e Fighters mechanically, but thematically...they aren't a class. They're a framework that class concepts get tacked onto.

I will say this, though. Your fighter gets more feats than anyone, and one of your extra feats is at level 6. You can afford to take out of combat feats like Linguist, Keen Mind, Athlete, Actor, etc. The fighter doesn't need to take all ASIs and combat feats to be effective.

I wouldn't take abilities from the subclasses, though, unless you're going to give something more specific to the subclass in exchange.

Lastly. A big part of the Fighter's out of combat identity is in the Subclasses, rather than the base class.

GlassJaw said:

I am taking full responsibility that I am beating a dead horse.

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One thing is clear. You definitely need more non-combat options if beating a dead horse is all you can do. And more effective combat options.

Two things. Two things are clear. You definitely need more non-combat options. And more effective combat options if beating a dead horse is all you can do. Etc.

/MontyPython

lowkey13 said:

You have interesting ideas- you should try them in your home campaign.

That said, you are going to get the usual responses (they can take additional feats, the game doesn't constrain how you play them, etc). But the most salient point is this-

There are twelve (12!) base classes. Before getting to all the subclasses (archetypes).

If someone has difficulty understanding how to have fun with a class, sometimes the best option is to ask them if they want to play a different class.

Ask the player if he like to play something else.

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This works for people who have an easy time making their concept with multiple mechanical frameworks. Other people just can't do it with any meaningful immersion, for whatever reason. Some of us can easily reflavor a warlock as an arcane archer, some people simply cannot. So, it depends on what the concept of the character is, and whether the player is one such player.

Nothing wrong with asking others for thoughts on how to fix things for such players.

But, I'm a wierdo. If I ran a forum, posts that amount to "your premise is bad and wrong" (which yours isn't, but the posts you and OP reference that they will likely receive as the thread goes on surely will be) would be against the rules. IMO, either engage meaningfully with the premise, or don't post in the thread. Again, I don't think you're doing that, I'm just jumping off your comments to address the inevitable such posts.

Anyway, I don't think that there is anything about OPs ideas so far that will disrupt the game in any way, so you're right that they should go ahead and do it in their game if they want. However, I don't think it will change the player's perception, since they aren't getting any better at interaction or exploration. More on that in my next reply below...

As an aside, I kinda wish that more of the Fighter's power balance lived in the subclass, if the base class is going to so generic.

Lucas Blackstone said:

What was the warlock and doing that made them a better scout/stealth character then the fighter? If you take skills to interact with the environment or on a social level then you can do so just like anyone else.

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The Warlock and Bard have class abilities that make them better at certain social and exploration activities than another character with just the skill. The fighter base class has no such abilities, and the PHB subclasses have, between them, a bonus tool proficiency (limited to artisan tools), and a boost to jumping and half proficiency with untrained physical attribute checks (which doesn't come online until level 7). The Bard has more skills, half proficiency on all untrained ability checks, and expertise. The Warlock has invocations that do all sorts of things for all pillars, and spells. One invocation gives them Persuasion and Deception. If they take pact of the tome, they get extra cantrips, and can pick up stuff like Prestidigitation and Minor Illusion and Message, and if they pick up pact of the chain, they can have a Sprite or Psuedodragon familiar that can help them in interaction and exploration just as much (if not more) as in combat.

Every class but fighter gets more than a couple skill proficiencies to help in the other 2 pillars.

Remarkable athlete isn't going to let you shine in anything but jumping over stuff. You won't be terrible at any physical tasks, which is fun, but you aren't going to be sneaking alongside a bard with expertise, or a warlock that can turn invisible by standing still, and you certainly won't be contributing to interaction in any way that stands out unless you spend feats on it. And it's not like Fighters just blow everyone else away in combat, either. They're good, but hardly so much better than other classes that it justifies not giving them anything to bring the spotlight on to them out of combat.

*Deleted by user*

Because the fighter is somewhat supposed to be a blank slate for flavour, I think that deciding what exactly the fighter should be good at outside combat is a nontrivial exercise. I also think that no matter what direction you go in someone will inevitably disagree with you on if what you came up with feels "fighter-y". Given that here's how I would go about it.

To keep the fighter generic but also giving specific flavourful abilities we offer many different abilities to customize as you see fit. Offer a couple early and then gain more as you level up (a lot like warlock invocations, but keep it strictly non-combat). This may increase the complexity of the class a tad, but that's not something I necessarily care about.

Some samples of abilities:

When all you have is a hammer: You may substitute a weapon in place of a proper tool without penalty. For example using daggers as pitons

That'll do for now: You may spend 1 minute to make repairs to a broken, non-magical object. The object functions as normal for 1 hour, but has vulnerability to all damage. Once you repair an object in this manner you cannot do so again.

Work harder not smarter: You may push yourself to get advantage on all checks that use STR, DEX and CON for 1 hour. At the end of the hour you suffer 1 level of exhaustion.

Scary face: When you make an intimidation check you add a bonus equal to your CON modifier (min 1)

A way with words: After you spend 10 minutes talking with single individual you can attempt to charm them. They must make a WIS saving throw against a DC of 10 + your proficiency bonus + your Cha modifier or be charmed for 1 hour. If they succeed they are immune to this affect for 24 hours.