5E yes, this again: Fighters need more non-combat options - Page 25
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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfcrusher View Post
    Saelorn "takes offense" at being accused of metagaming, yet he thinks it's fine to continually accuse others of "not roleplaying"?

    Hmmm....
    And metagaming. I didn't point out his metagaming until he accused me of it first.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistwell View Post
    I think one area that's ripe for a fighter is tool use (and yes I know everyone can gain tool usage, but the incentive for the Fighter to gain them so they have more to do when out of combat is higher than for other classes). It's something which can be learned in downtime, and which has potentially much wider application than I suspect a lot of games use/exploit to their most advantage. Xanathar's Guide went a long way to helping out with this.

    For example at level 3 a Battle Master gets "Student of War", where you gain proficiency with one type of artisanís tools of your choice. I picked Carpentry Tools, and this is on my Character Sheet with all my other abilities:

    Carpentry: Enables a character to construct wooden structures; house, a shack, a wooden cabinet, or similar items. Components. saw, hammer, nails, hatchet, square, ruler, adze, plane, chisel. Xanathar's Pg 78
    History. Aids you in identifying the use and the origin of wooden buildings and other large wooden objects.
    Investigation. Additional insight when inspecting areas within wooden structures, because you know tricks of construction that can conceal areas from discovery.
    Perception. You can spot irregularities in wooden walls or floors, making it easier to find trap doors and secret passages.
    Stealth. You can quickly assess the weak spots in a wooden floor, making it easier to avoid the places that creek and groan when theyíre stepped on.
    Fortify. With 1 minute of work and raw materials, you can make a door or window harder to force open. Increase the DC needed to open it by 5.
    Temporary Shelter. As part of a long rest, you can construct a lean-to or a similar shelter to keep your group dry and in the shade for the duration of the rest. Because it was fashioned quickly from whatever wood was available, the shelter collapses 1d3 days after being assembled.
    And then the list of four DCs listed in Xanathar's.

    What this means is I now essentially have proficiency in History, Investigation, and Stealth when those checks are made concerning certain activities over or with wooden structures, objects, floors, walls, etc.. And I can help block a door during short and long rests, and help out with shelters. All good stuff for out of combat activities.
    Y'know that's a good idea. Tool use isn't a bad idea at all. IIRC, you can become proficient in tools through down time training, no? Like you can learn languages right? Or am I misremembering things? Well, in any case, why not allow fighters to train in tools the way you can learn languages - 10 work weeks (?) of down time to learn a new tool? IDHMBIFOM, so, I can't remember the actual times. But, that's not a bad way to go. Totally up to the player whether or not he or she wants to do it.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hussar View Post
    Y'know that's a good idea. Tool use isn't a bad idea at all. IIRC, you can become proficient in tools through down time training, no? Like you can learn languages right? Or am I misremembering things?
    You remember correctly. "Receiving training in a language or tool typically takes at least ten workweeks, but this time is reduced by a number of workweeks equal to the characterís Intelligence modifier (an Intelligence penalty doesnít increase the time needed). Training costs 25 gp per workweek."

  4. #244
    It is easier than ever for Fighters to branch out into other areas of interest because of Bounded Accuracy, the proficiency system, Feats and ASI.

    It is trivially easy for a fighter to take the persuasion skill, a base Cha 12 and a charisma ASI to both charismatic and skilled and be the face of the party.

    Itís easy to put some points into wisdom, take medicine and healers kit proficiency and be a battlefield healer.

    The discussion on tools above shows how practical game benefits can come from thinking outside the box and common sense interpretations of the base rules. All xanathars guide did was show us what any DM or player could have come up with using the existing rule set and proficiency system.

    Regarding Saelornís comment that natural talent trumps skill every time. I have to disagree. Natural talent when refined and developed is better than training alone but there are lots of situations when natural instinct and flair are trumped by training or experience... driving, art, musical instruments, cooking, medicine, negotiation, jurisprudence, construction and Iím sure many more. Of course the ideal is to have both.

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword View Post
    It is easier than ever for Fighters to branch out into other areas of interest because of Bounded Accuracy, the proficiency system, Feats and ASI.
    Guess which class can also do this......all of them.
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  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Eubani View Post
    Guess which class can also do this......all of them.
    Not as well as the fighter, because of the extra feat/ASI, and the fact that it isnít a MAD class, only really needs Str or Dex and Con.

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword View Post
    Itís easy to put some points into wisdom, take medicine and healers kit proficiency and be a battlefield healer.
    This is adjacent to the thread, but Medicine is not used here. The point of a Healer's Kit is to remove the need for a Medicine check.

    Medicine is a completely useless skill which should not be in the game.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword View Post
    Not as well as the fighter, because of the extra feat/ASI, and the fact that it isnít a MAD class, only really needs Str or Dex and Con.
    As has been discussed in this thread, the fighter doesn't get an extra feat until level 6. Up to that point, most of the other classes have class abilities that help them in the social and exploration pillars of the game.

    It also feels like a tax on the fighter that they need to spend their first bonus feat on something so they have something they con contribute outside of combat. Pretty much every class already is doing that from levels 1-5.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlassJaw View Post
    As has been discussed in this thread, the fighter doesn't get an extra feat until level 6. Up to that point, most of the other classes have class abilities that help them in the social and exploration pillars of the game.

    It also feels like a tax on the fighter that they need to spend their first bonus feat on something so they have something they con contribute outside of combat. Pretty much every class already is doing that from levels 1-5.
    Sorry, but at a certain point, people don't want solutions.

    Let's start with the obvious. What is the class name?

    It is the Fighter. It is not the Socializer, or the Explorer. So from the very beginning, we need to start with the assumption that this character will be some sort of ... Fighting Man. That there may be an emphasis on .... fighting. On .... combat.

    That's right. From a certain perspective, the idea that "Fighter are terrible because they fight" is somewhat akin to saying that you hate water because it is wet, or, more on point, that you don't like Wizards because you don't like Magic.

    We all understand that, right? Now, there are specific criticisms of the fighter, which tend to get bandied about interchangeably, which makes all of these threads annoying and pointless because these argument are inevitably conflated.

    1. "I wanna complex martial character." This is a fair one. Call this the "I hate champions" or "The battlemaster doesn't scratch my itch," objections. There are individuals who want, in effect, a spell-casting martial character that doesn't cast spells. A warlord, or a character who, without magic, has the same number of point choices as a wizard. That's fine, but that's orthogonal to the issue of the fighter as it is. They really need a different class.

    2. "I just played an X, and the fighter bores me." Much akin to your player, a fighter is not for every player, just like a wizard is not for every player. But I have yet to see a thread where a DM states, "I have a player that doesn't like the complexity of dealing with the Wizard's spellcasting; so how about we change the Wizard class?"

    3. "The fighter is terrible outside of combat."

    Three is really where people who discuss (1) and (2) end up arguing their theoretical objections. But, and here's the thing that has been repeated ad nauseum, this isn't true for all sorts of use cases. You can go EK and cast spells (utility ones). You can sword and board (Strength build) and build up your charisma and use background. As has been pointed out repeatedly, the fighter has all sorts of flexibility.

    And it is the most popular class for a reason. Because some people enjoy the flexibility, and other people enjoy ... relaxing. And hitting stuff. And that's fine.

    What's profoundly weird, IMO, is that the single most popular class in all of D&D is singled out as being, somehow, not good enough.


    Put more simply, the fighter is, IMO, the quintessential example of preference- that not everything can please every player. There are twelve classes, and you might not like all of them equally; and that should be okay. But a difference in preferences (or, concomitantly, the fact that different tables play differently and that players at one table will have great fun and success with a fighter out of combat, and at another table they will not because of a lack of clearly defined class abilities, aka buttons to push) does not make something a problem to be solved.


    EDIT- I really didn't want to be drawn into this; this horse has been beaten to death not just in this thread, but in the past three years as you know from the title you gave this.
    XP DM Dave1, Imaro, cbwjm, Maxperson gave XP for this post

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by GlassJaw View Post
    As has been discussed in this thread, the fighter doesn't get an extra feat until level 6. Up to that point, most of the other classes have class abilities that help them in the social and exploration pillars of the game.

    It also feels like a tax on the fighter that they need to spend their first bonus feat on something so they have something they con contribute outside of combat. Pretty much every class already is doing that from levels 1-5.
    The feats arenít a tax because they are extra ability to what other classes receive. The fighter can choose to specialise in combat or can branch out into other areas beyond combat. What is being missed is that the fighter can afford to branch out with its feats, skills, and ability scores and yet still be great in combat because of extra attacks, action surge and the fighter archetype abilities. Other classes canít do that. Iím not saying that fighters are the best at doing this, there are also ways more powerful classes but they can do it respectably.

    I always like an example. I created a Sun Elf Fighter who acted as a Witcher style character. Survival, Arcana, Athletics, Perception, and proficiency with alchemy and herbalism tools gave them plenty to do outside combat from level 1 while still being great in combat. At no point did I feel sidelined or disenfranchised. This would have been almost impossible to create as satisfactorily under earlier editions using just the base fighter.

    On a side issue most games are played at levels 4-12 where ASIís are very much available and useful. Levels 1-3 tend to pass very quickly and most games peter out past level 10.
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