Star Trek Discovery not getting any better I fear.

Hussar said:

I'm still utterly baffled by this whole "Mary Sue" criticism. I really am. What has she done that merits this? Is she a better fighter than anyone? Well, no, she routinely gets her ass handed to her. Is she a better pilot? Well, no, Lorca and Pike as well as others are better pilots. Smarter? Nope. Solves every problem when no one else can? Nope. Better engineer maybe? Nope, there are several engineers ahead of her on that one.

So, what is it? Is it because she has more screen time? Or that in the first season most of the plots placed her at the center? That's not a Mary Sue, that's just a protagonist. Is it because she's the focus of much of the show, whereas previous Star Treks focused so much attention on the captains?

Let's not forget here, by yesteryear's standards, we're not even through a single season yet. Yup, the show focuses on Burnham. That's true. She's the lead character, whereas previous Treks put the Captain in the lead. Again, still not a Mary Sue.

It would really strengthen people's criticisms if they could avoid using such loaded shorthand that really doesn't apply here.

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Well she is the one attempting the assassination in the pilot episode instead of a security officer and comes out alive, didn't fare bad at all in the mirror universe and was able to hold out against the Pseudoborg. Who is a better fighter than her?
And she was the test pilot of those pods used in the season 2 pilot and, of course, saves Pike while everyone not following her order dies. And she often rudely interrupts her superior officers because she has a better idea than them. That is of course in addition to her now being the only person who can wear the suite and thus the entire reason season 2 even happened and generally everything important happening somehow being related to her actions or even just genes.

Hussar said:

IOW, "I don't like the character of Burnham, I find her unbelievable, flat, two dimensional and kinda boring" is an arguable, but, understandable point. "I don't like Burnham because she's a Mary Sue" just invites all sorts of counter arguments that reveal that no, she really isn't.

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I think we know what it's really about.

Morrus said:

I think we know what it's really about.

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And that is?

Hussar said:

Most interesting? Dunno about that, but, there's no doubt that the series definitely places him at the center of the story lines. As it does with Janeway as well. Is there any real doubt here that either character is the main protagonist on the show?

Here are two characters that get the most screen time overall, and whose decisions and actions drive the plot for pretty much every episode. Sure, there are a few episodes every season where the captain isn't at the centre, but, that's because you'Ve got 24 (ish) episodes per season. You can afford to have that.

And that youtube video was pretty much a selection of bog standard clips about the protagonist in a Star Trek serial. You could make identical, almost scene for scene clip collections for Kirk or Picard. Youngest captain ever. Top of his class. Most decorated Star Fleet captain ever. Loved by every alien female. Oh, but, Kirk's not a Mary Sue. Picard is pretty much in the same boat as well. Best captain. Moral center of the universe. Never mistaken.

Look, I get criticizing Discovery, I really do. But, these Mary Sue things are bizarre considering what we're comparing Burnham to. It really does ring rather false.

IOW, "I don't like the character of Burnham, I find her unbelievable, flat, two dimensional and kinda boring" is an arguable, but, understandable point. "I don't like Burnham because she's a Mary Sue" just invites all sorts of counter arguments that reveal that no, she really isn't.

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Sisko doesn't seem to get that much screen time though at leat in main plot points of the show, DS9 seems to be truly an ensemble cast. Odo and Quark seem to get a lot of attention as well, DS9 doesn't seem to be so focused on Sisko. Sisko also makes mistakes and violates his principles to serve the greater good, he comes across as less preachy etc than say Kirk/Picard.

Not sure about Voyager, but TNG and TOS Picard and Kirk were the main characters IMHO.

Burnhams not such a mary sue IMHO the two main problems are she isn't very likeable and they haven't put much effort into developing anyone else or showcasing anyone else. Comparing with DS9 they have multiple characters that are interesting/likable including the villains like Gul Dukat. Bashir is the least interesting character and I even like him, just less that the others. I thought the cyborg was potentially interesting but by the time they developed her they killed her off in the same episode.

Discovery also doesn't have interesting support characters once you get away from the main ones. There is no real equivalent of Nog, Garek, Rom, Gul Dukat, or in jokes like Morn. Go back to the older Treks if you don't like Kirk/Picard who about Scotty, Spock, Data, Worf etc.

Also since the 90's I think people like characters to be a bit more complex with some flaws. A bit darker (Breaking Bad, Sopranos, Game of Thrones, DS9, B5, etc). Even the Rock/Stone Cold Steve Austin lol which were around during DS9/Voyager. Batman as well. We're 2 episodes behind in STD as DS9 (has been so good by comparison and we have been binge watching that. My wifes not a Trekkie (even less than me I know the basics), but she has enjoyed DS9 as well.

Burnham is less a Mary Sue (though her competency is wide-ranging and generally top tier) and more a Chosen One. She's multiple Chosen Ones. First, Chosen because of her mirror-universe analogue's history with the former captain and empress of the mirror universe and now because of her mom and time travel stuff. Whatever the situation, she ends up having a special relationship to its heart that requires her deep involvement.

Zaardnar said:

Burnhams not such a mary sue IMHO the two main problems are she isn't very likeable and they haven't put much effort into developing anyone else or showcasing anyone else. Comparing with DS9 they have multiple characters that are interesting/likable including the villains like Gul Dukat. Bashir is the least interesting character and I even like him, just less that the others. I thought the cyborg was potentially interesting but by the time they developed her they killed her off in the same episode.

Discovery also doesn't have interesting support characters once you get away from the main ones. There is no real equivalent of Nog, Garek, Rom, Gul Dukat, or in jokes like Morn. Go back to the older Treks if you don't like Kirk/Picard who about Scotty, Spock, Data, Worf etc

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Now, this, this I can largely agree with. But, again, we have to not forget run time. A single season of TOS was three seasons of Discovery. Even later Star Treks usually had about 20-25 hours per season.

When you're running such shorter seasons, you simply don't have the time to develop characters like Nog or Garek or Morn.

But, to me, that's a pretty reasonable criticism.

Hussar said:

Now, this, this I can largely agree with. But, again, we have to not forget run time. A single season of TOS was three seasons of Discovery. Even later Star Treks usually had about 20-25 hours per season.

When you're running such shorter seasons, you simply don't have the time to develop characters like Nog or Garek or Morn.

But, to me, that's a pretty reasonable criticism.

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Ok DS9 Season 1 or shorter shows like Game of Thrones, Orange is the New Black, Sense 8 or Humans. You can do it, STD just doesn't have great writing.

A weak finale for a weak season.

So Starfleet ships consist out of shuttles (why was that never used in the Klingon war?) when instead they should be made out of bulkheads as those things seem to magically neutralize explosions.
And the explanation how the events of Discovery fit into the canon are completely bogus.

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Why did they have gone into the future anyway? With Lelands death Control is destroyed. Somehow. For no reason.
And the Chancellors days should be numbered because of Taylor being allowed on the bridge for some reason, proving her to be a liar.
Why did the Admiral had to sacrifice herself when you have transporter technology which you use just a few minutes later, proving it to be functional?
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Hopefully this was the last episode of Discovery and we get a Pike series instead.

Derren said:

Hopefully this was the last episode of Discovery and we get a Pike series instead.

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Pike series will be equally crap if they use/borrow Discovery writers or any like them.

Hussar said:

Now, this, this I can largely agree with. But, again, we have to not forget run time. A single season of TOS was three seasons of Discovery. Even later Star Treks usually had about 20-25 hours per season.

When you're running such shorter seasons, you simply don't have the time to develop characters like Nog or Garek or Morn.

But, to me, that's a pretty reasonable criticism.

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Not really...

Rewatching the “best of” DS9 right now. Based on this site’s recommendations:
https://medium.com/maxistentialism-blog/star-trek-deep-space-nine-in-82-5-hours-10acde591fd2

In the 23 combined episodes of season 1 and 2, said characters get more time and attention than almost any character in Discovery.