Star Trek Discovery not getting any better I fear.

Mustrum_Ridcully · Feb 23, 2019

MarkB said:
Interesting title for today's episode, and I'm not sure how much to read into it. Taken from a classic science fiction short story, the prototypical crushing-a-butterfly story about the repercussions of changing the past, and it opened with images of butterfly-like creatures flitting between flowers, yet for all the talk about the Red Angel's potential time-travel capabilities there was no apparent use of time travel within the plot.

Overall, the story felt a little forced and one-sided. We get barely a glimpse of the Ba'ul's side of this culture's divisions, and the decision to facilitate the Kelpiens' transformation is made with no knowledge of either its long-term psychological effects or the potential side effects of artificially inducing it upon Kelpiens before their natural maturation. It's a ridiculously reckless move to make with two entire species' survival at stake.

Is it really ridiculously reckless?
It might be reckless, but consider that you have to compare this recklessness with non-intervention being agreeing that regularly murdering Kelpians that get old enough, no questions asked, no chance given, and trap them forever in ignorance and fear of their eventual fate of being culled.
I mean if the Ba'ul would have been willing to negotiate, it could have been avoided, but they weren't, so the choices were basically finding a way to force the issue, or let them keep murdering innocents for the forseeable future.

The entire situation on the planet is overall not that bad - the Ba'ul presumably live a safe and good life in their own enclaves, and the Kelpian had a neat little life as well - except for the regular murdering of adult Kelpians, of course. Removing the murdering does not mean peace becomes impossible, in fact, it is actually a requirement for genuine peace.

We also have an example of what at least some Kelpian do when they find peace from their constant state of fear - they try to protect that state. That's what Saru did on Pahvo. He was willing to fight aggressively for it - but remember he fought for his peace, not for dominance, revenge, sports or hunting. The Kelpian people are likely going to do the same. And since the Ba'ul maintain the technological advantage, anything else would likely be fruitless, if not outright counter-productive.
And the Federation stands ready to help them negotiate a peace.

MarkB · Feb 23, 2019

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
Is it really ridiculously reckless?
It might be reckless, but consider that you have to compare this recklessness with non-intervention being agreeing that regularly murdering Kelpians that get old enough, no questions asked, no chance given, and trap them forever in ignorance and fear of their eventual fate of being culled.

But it's not just a choice between "act now, immediately, without hesitation" and "never interfere or intervene ever".

They know from the sphere's historical database that the Kelpiens nearly wiped out the Ba'ul previously. They know that Saru has undergone both physical and emotional changes that are still ongoing. For all they knew, for all they still know, the conclusion of that transformation could be a vicious, bestial personality with which there is no reasoning or peace. They had exactly zero examples of a living Kelpien who had completely finished his transformation process into apex predator, and no idea what that would really look like, and they unleashed that unknown across an entire planet.

Plus, they had no idea what effect the transformation would have on a Kelpien who had not yet reached a sufficient state of maturity to undergo it naturally. It could kill them, or cripple them for life, or drive them insane.

Waiting long enough to determine the answers to these questions would have cost the lives of Saru and his sister, possibly their entire village, but beyond that they could still have gone ahead with saving the rest of the Kelpien species if they knew that their plan would actually do that.

Mallus · Feb 23, 2019

I don’t think ‘liberating’ the Kelpiens was any more reckless than Kirk ending the virtual war between Eminar VII and Vendicar in “A Taste of Armageddon”. The Enterprise crew could of just escaped and left the system. Instead they introduced the nontrivial chance that two civiliazations would serve each other a 7-course Armageddon using real fusion bombs. In both episodes, the Federation instigates a sudden massive change, then skips out with no more than a “they’ll work it out, probably”.

Though I am somewhat converned (and intrigued) by the metatextual evidence offered by the episode title. Will the DISCO writers really try to navigate the minefield of turning a species deliberately described as oppressed (subject to culling, even) into a future existential threat?

I’m actually a fan of taking a bad idea & running with it in art, but even Spock and Data working together couldn’t calculate all the ways that could go wrong.

Mage of Spellford · Feb 23, 2019

Sigh. Last episode I thought they were finally getting away from the continually disobeying a 'direct order' but no this week...there it is again. IMHO that is very lazy writing, one wonders how starfleet holds together at all with the crew blithely ignoring any order because of 'feelings' or 'introspective' or 'pretty much any other excuse'.

Discovery:

Capt: lock on to the enemy vessel and fire phasers
Crewperson1: Captain you need to provide me with a reason a context to fire upon the vessel. And what does the definition 'enemy' actually mean anyways? Is it...
Crew person 2: Captain the other vessel is locking on with weapons.
Crew person 1: .....maybe because they have a different perspective than us. Are we justified in using deadly force in this particular case...
Crew person 2: Captain they are firing weapons...
Crew person 1: ...Maybe we just need to look at it from their perspective it would be wrong for us to assume that just because we believe locking on weapons is a hostile act that they view it the same way...
Capt: What?!?
Crew person 1: Sorry Captain I can't in all good conscience follow the order to fire the phasers when I have this personal quandary to solve."
Capt: What?!?
Crewperson2: Whoops enemy vessel firing! Shields at 5% and falling....

Yeah. So far we have one episode this season where a starfleet crew person didn't disobey a direct order from their ranking officer..

C'mon writers this is pretty basic stuff. Star Fleet is supposed to be a hierarchical organization. Back to unimpressed..

MarkK

Morrus · Feb 23, 2019

Mage of Spellford said:
Sigh. Last episode I thought they were finally getting away from the continually disobeying a 'direct order' but no this week...there it is again. IMHO that is very lazy writing, one wonders how starfleet holds together at all with the crew blithely ignoring any order because of 'feelings' or 'introspective' or 'pretty much any other excuse'.

Discovery:

Capt: lock on to the enemy vessel and fire phasers
Crewperson1: Captain you need to provide me with a reason a context to fire upon the vessel. And what does the definition 'enemy' actually mean anyways? Is it...
Crew person 2: Captain the other vessel is locking on with weapons.
Crew person 1: .....maybe because they have a different perspective than us. Are we justified in using deadly force in this particular case...
Crew person 2: Captain they are firing weapons...
Crew person 1: ...Maybe we just need to look at it from their perspective it would be wrong for us to assume that just because we believe locking on weapons is a hostile act that they view it the same way...
Capt: What?!?
Crew person 1: Sorry Captain I can't in all good conscience follow the order to fire the phasers when I have this personal quandary to solve."
Capt: What?!?
Crewperson2: Whoops enemy vessel firing! Shields at 5% and falling....

Yeah. So far we have one episode this season where a starfleet crew person didn't disobey a direct order from their ranking officer..

C'mon writers this is pretty basic stuff. Star Fleet is supposed to be a hierarchical organization. Back to unimpressed..

MarkK

It’s almost like you’ve never seen Star Trek before!

Mage of Spellford · Feb 25, 2019

Morrus said:
It’s almost like you’ve never seen Star Trek before!

Cheeky but true!

Mallus · Feb 25, 2019

Mage of Spellford said:
IMHO that is very lazy writing, one wonders how starfleet holds together at all with the crew blithely ignoring any order because of 'feelings' or 'introspective' or 'pretty much any other excuse'.

Starfleet crews also never lock the shuttle bay door & leave the keys in the shuttlecraft. This drove my wife crazy when we were watching TNG a few years back.

Star Fleet is supposed to be a hierarchical organization.

It's complicated.

Zardnaar · Feb 26, 2019

I'm not even a trekkie but ignoring the prime directive is part and parcel yes?

Mustrum_Ridcully · Feb 26, 2019

Zardnaar said:
I'm not even a trekkie but ignoring the prime directive is part and parcel yes?

Yes. I'd say it's really a bit like other laws or convention in all fiction - the interesting stories involve people breaking the laws or convention of the setting.
Extreme Example: Murder is illegal, but someone on a revenge trip because they killed they killed his dog is interesting.
Sometimes the story is about why the law is important, sometimes about why it's wrong, sometimes about why it might not always fit, sometimes it's just about how difficult it is to violate it...

Ryujin · Feb 26, 2019

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
Yes. I'd say it's really a bit like other laws or convention in all fiction - the interesting stories involve people breaking the laws or convention of the setting.
Extreme Example: Murder is illegal, but someone on a revenge trip because they killed they killed his dog is interesting.
Sometimes the story is about why the law is important, sometimes about why it's wrong, sometimes about why it might not always fit, sometimes it's just about how difficult it is to violate it...

Thing is that it seems they've played with what the Prime Directive actually is, over the years. In the TOS days it was about not messing with less advanced (non star-faring) cultures so as not to alter their independent growth and development. Screwing with the Eminiar VII-Vendikar war wasn't mentioned as a Prime Directive issue, because they were both developed cultures. In later years it morphed into not interfering with *any* cultures, developed or otherwise.