Cantrip House Rule

I don't like the idea of doing away with scaling cantrips...up until about level 5ish it wont matter (maybe even up to level 7) then it basicly becomes "Don't use cantrips unless you have no other choice" It really hurts the eldritch knight (who has the ability to make 1 attack and use a cantrip or make multi attacks, and at level 11 there is no reason to do so, at the level you get your 4th attack it is a joke)

Giving extra spell slots is totally broken. Wizards and Druids and Clerics already have enough that in most cases they don't need more...

lets look at level 5, most casters have 4/3/1 that is 8 rounds of casting a spell, if most fight are 2-4 rounds and you are hacing 1-3 encounters typically you are having HALF of your rounds casting spells, adding 3 more spells makes it 11 rounds...

Prediction

Full caster will ask for long rest more often. With scaling cantrip they can manage some encounters without spell slot, but with this house rule they will not.

On the same logic, five minutes work day will be a bigger temptation. The additional high level slot will produce more nova effects.

Nutation said:

I think I would not boost the character's highest level slot, but stop at the next-highest. Maybe one step lower for the half-casters, maybe not. You get more utility spell castings that way, which could be interesting. Alternatively, you get more spell attacks of low level, which might feel similar to the previous cantrip approach.

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Rangers and Paladins don't have cantrips...but eldritch knights and spell thieves do.

Krachek said:

Prediction

Full caster will ask for long rest more often. With scaling cantrip they can manage some encounters without spell slot, but with this house rule they will not.

On the same logic, five minutes work day will be a bigger temptation. The additional high level slot will produce more nova effects.

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wizards (and I think one type of druid) can recall some spells on short rests, but yes I agree this will make the party rest more.

FrogReaver said:

Fights per day: Anywhere from 1 to 8. My current campaign does 1-3 typically. Others swear by the 6-8 mantra. I'd be interested in hearing in the proposed change has issues in any of those circumstances.

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If it's 3 fights per day, I think players will adjust. 6 per day is tougher (and was the designers' target).
Characters want to do something every round, which was the motivation for creating cantrips. Clerics and druids have other things to do (weapons, Wild Shape), which leaves the wizards and sorcs. I envision them choosing spells like Flaming Sphere that persist, but that will cut down on buff spells that require concentration.
Or cast Magic Weapon. Actually, magic damage will be in shorter supply. Monster resistance to normal weapons becomes more significant, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. (I play in AL which changed the rules last year so every character is pretty much guaranteed a +1 weapon by 7th.)
There is also such things as wands. The mix of magic items you give out will matter, but when does it not? Decide if you want that to be a tool to compensate or not.
Going back to the player choices, they might just avoid building characters that run out of things to do, e.g., more elven wizards with bows.

FreezerBurnedDM said:

I can't agree more. Cantrip scaling exists for a reason, I think you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. The one exception is that I think scaling eldritch blast alone to warlock levels isn't bad. It nerfs one level warlock dips slightly.

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Should I add paprika and peppers to my dish?

No I won't tell you what the dish is or whether I like them.

???

FrogReaver said:

Anyone want to actually talk about the proposed changes instead of why I'm asking about the proposed changes?

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Not really. You can't design in a vacuum with no context, or at least ask people to provide meaningful feedback on your design.

Without that, I'd say your idea is completely unnecessary and creates too many far-reaching changes that can't considered without significant playtest.

Krachek said:

Prediction

Full caster will ask for long rest more often. With scaling cantrip they can manage some encounters without spell slot, but with this house rule they will not.

On the same logic, five minutes work day will be a bigger temptation. The additional high level slot will produce more nova effects.

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These are my initial thoughts as well. It will also make the lower and mid-levels more of a slog as casters won't be able to dish out as much damage round-to-round; a single extra spell slot won't compensate.

But in boss fights, you will have to deal with multiple fireballs, scorching rays, etc, making those battles much more swingy.

GMforPowergamers said:

I don't like the idea of doing away with scaling cantrips...up until about level 5ish it wont matter (maybe even up to level 7) then it basicly becomes "Don't use cantrips unless you have no other choice"

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I disagree. Cantrips remain your action to do something useful while saving spell slots. It's just now cantrips would actually be inferior to any given spell as opposed to being nearly equivalent to many of them.

It really hurts the eldritch knight (who has the ability to make 1 attack and use a cantrip or make multi attacks, and at level 11 there is no reason to do so, at the level you get your 4th attack it is a joke)

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the eldritch knight ability to use a cantrip and bonus action attack is still better than just extra attack in the same level range it always was. It's still inferior to extra attack in the level 11+ range just like always. It's just won't be as much better than extra attack in the level 7-10 range as it is now.

But as it stands right now eldritch knights would be compensated with extra spell slots anyways. Personally I think the spell slots would actually make them a little better than scaling cantrips but in any case I don't see the balance really changing to a degree that warrants any worry.

I expect some classes and builds and configurations to be slightly better or worse. Big changes always do that. But so far the changes mentioned have sounded small and inconsequential. (Except maybe the half caster change that someone else mentioned).

Giving extra spell slots is totally broken. Wizards and Druids and Clerics already have enough that in most cases they don't need more...

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If they already have more than they can cast then adding extra can't hurt anything. They will just have more left over spells they can't cast.

lets look at level 5, most casters have 4/3/1 that is 8 rounds of casting a spell, if most fight are 2-4 rounds and you are hacing 1-3 encounters typically you are having HALF of your rounds casting spells, adding 3 more spells makes it 11 rounds...

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So if anything the wizard with firebolt would do an extra 8d10 attacks worth of damage with scaling cantrips. I would instead be giving him a level 1 spellslot a level 2 spell slot and a level 3 spellslot in complensation. Honestly it sounds to me like that's a slight improvement. Is it enough of an improvement to cause significant balance issues? I personally don't think so but maybe I'm missing something. If I am I can easily adjust the spell slots such that he gains them at a slightly different rate. There has to be some number of additional spell slots that you think would be a fair trade for non-scaling cantrips right?

Krachek said:

Prediction

Full caster will ask for long rest more often. With scaling cantrip they can manage some encounters without spell slot, but with this house rule they will not.

On the same logic, five minutes work day will be a bigger temptation. The additional high level slot will produce more nova effects.

Click to expand...

Interesting, I actually would predict the party will rest less. Wizards already push for rest when their spell slots get very low. I expect more spell slots will mean wizards maintain having some good spell slots longer and as long as they have that then they are less likely to insist on rest.