D&D 4E 4e Rituals -> 5e

Satyrn · Jan 28, 2019

I like the idea of these rituals as tool proficiencies, that a character might know 1 or 2 at the start of the game, and then learn more through downtime or taking feats.

I think I'd change the name to something other than ritual, though, to separate them from all the rules around 5e's rituals. I don't know what that new name should be, though. I might use "rites" but that's as confusing as having characters called Saruman and Sauron in the same book.

TheSword · Jan 28, 2019

Rites sounds great. I would use these as a form of treasure, doled as rewards for services to a temple or organization.

I think possible costs could be...

- gold
- HD
- Inspiration
- Ability Damage

I always loved the 3rd edition Forgotten realms rites that some faiths granted.

jgsugden · Jan 28, 2019

The easy version of this?

Rites (an alternative name for Rituals due to 5E already having a mechanic with that name) would be something that can be performed by someone witht the correct skill proficiency. Some rites are arcane, others divine, and others nature. Some require proficinecy in a comination of those skills. You'd need to have access to the Rite's instructions.

Rites usually have material components that are consumed in any attempt to perform the rite. If disrupted, the rite fails and the material components are ruined.

Rites have long 'casting' times - 1 hour minimum. Throughout the rite, several skill checks will be performed. These checks, functioning much like a 4E skill challenge, will determine if the attempt will work.

Let's say that someone wants to use a rite to move an enchantment from a sword to a glaive. There was a 4E ritual to move enchantments. I'd give the parallel rite a casting time based upon rarity (1 hour for common, 10 years for artifacts), a cost of 1/4 the cost of the item per DMG recommendations based upon rarity and require 3 successful skill checks out of 4 attempts with DCs based upon the rarity of the item (10 for common, 12 for uncommon, 15 for rare, 20 for very rary, 25 for legendary, 30 for artifacts).

Quickleaf · Jan 28, 2019

[MENTION=261]Doc_Klueless[/MENTION] Many of 4e's rituals are already in the game as spells or class features...

Explosive Runes > Glyph of Warding, Eye of Alarm > alarm, Familiar Mount > find steed or perhaps class features, Far Sending > sending, Find the Path > find the path, Fools' Gold > various illusion spells, Forbiddance > forbiddance, etc.

I'd be wary about interpreting 4e rituals as level ÷ 3 = PC level needed to cast in 5e, because there are different assumptions in how 4e and 5e are designed.

For example, take Eagles' Flight – a 10th level ritual that conjures up to 8 giant eagles (non-combatants) with an overland fly speed of around 15 to 20 (depending on your Nature check), flying for 12 hours. According to your system, you'd be granting this to PCs at... 10 ÷ 3 = 3.3.... at 3rd level (or 4th level if you round up).

If you compare that to the 3rd level fly spell in 5e – which is available to 5th-level PCs and only affects one creature – Eagles' Flight is objectively superior.

This is the sort of challenge you're going to encounter when trying to generate a general level conversion rule. 5e has very different baseline assumptions. I suspect you'll need to curate your list extensively.

Doc_Klueless · Jan 28, 2019

As others have mentioned, some Rites (I like the name as well!) are duplicates of spells held by characters and that's ok with me for the most part depending on the spell (such as Raise Dead that should be firmly in the grasp of Clerics and such). I don't mind others being able to do some of the things that other spell casting classes can do if it comes at a cost. That cost being time, money and skill.

I do think that jgsugden is on to something with having Rites take an hour or more to complete. That leaves the Rituals by Casters/Feat holders even better in that they only take 10 minutes or so. I'm thinking 50 minutes plus 10 minutes per level of Rite. So a hypothetical 20th level Rite would take a little over 4 hours to cast. Hmmm.... that may be too long. Maybe modify the time by the level of the Character? Hrm. Or just take the time listed in the 4e listings and add an hour to them. Simple in its... er... simplicity.

I also like the idea of the characters having to do multiple skill checks to complete the Rite, though I'm not entirely sure how I'd want to do that.

Doc_Klueless · Jan 28, 2019

Quickleaf said:
[MENTION=261]I'd be wary about interpreting 4e rituals as level ÷ 3 = PC level needed to cast in 5e, because there are different assumptions in how 4e and 5e are designed.

Yah. I had someone point out that I should use 4e Level ÷ 1.5 = PC level needed to cast in 5e.

It's a place to start modifying from.

Mistwell · Jan 28, 2019

Here's your 4e PHB Rituals List by the way, for a starting reference point (though when you expand the list to all sources including "official" dragon magazine ones, I think there are 277):

Animal Messenger
Arcane Lock
Brew Potion
Commune with Nature
Comprehend Language
Consult Mystic Sages
Consult Oracle
Cure Disease
Detect Object
Detect Secret Doors
Discern Lies
Disenchant Magic Item
Drawmij's Instant Summons
Enchant Magic Item
Endure Elements
Eye of Alarm
Eye of Warning
Forbiddance
Gentle Repose
Hallucinatory Creature
Hallucinatory Item
Hand of Fate
Knock
Leomund's Secret Chest
Linked Portal
Loremaster's Bargain
Magic Circle
Magic Mouth
Make Whole
Observe Creature
Passwall
Phantom Steed
Planar Portal
Raise Dead
Remove Affliction
Secret Page
Sending
Shadow Walk
Silence
Speak with Dead
Tenser's Floating Disk
Travelers' Feast
True Portal
View Location
View Object
Voice of Fate
Water Breathing
Water Walk
Wizard's Sight

happyhermit · Jan 29, 2019

Quickleaf said:
[MENTION=261]Doc_Klueless[/MENTION] Many of 4e's rituals are already in the game as spells or class features...

Explosive Runes > Glyph of Warding, Eye of Alarm > alarm, Familiar Mount > find steed or perhaps class features, Far Sending > sending, Find the Path > find the path, Fools' Gold > various illusion spells, Forbiddance > forbiddance, etc.

I'd be wary about interpreting 4e rituals as level ÷ 3 = PC level needed to cast in 5e, because there are different assumptions in how 4e and 5e are designed.

For example, take Eagles' Flight – a 10th level ritual that conjures up to 8 giant eagles (non-combatants) with an overland fly speed of around 15 to 20 (depending on your Nature check), flying for 12 hours. According to your system, you'd be granting this to PCs at... 10 ÷ 3 = 3.3.... at 3rd level (or 4th level if you round up).

If you compare that to the 3rd level fly spell in 5e – which is available to 5th-level PCs and only affects one creature – Eagles' Flight is objectively superior.

This is the sort of challenge you're going to encounter when trying to generate a general level conversion rule. 5e has very different baseline assumptions. I suspect you'll need to curate your list extensively.

IIRC though, those eagles wouldn't function in any sort of combat situation (most 4e rituals are at the very least difficult to use in combat). So, not objectively superior, but for travel obviously much better.

doctorbadwolf · Jan 29, 2019

happyhermit said:
IIRC though, those eagles wouldn't function in any sort of combat situation (most 4e rituals are at the very least difficult to use in combat). So, not objectively superior, but for travel obviously much better.

Make the ritual end if any eagle is damaged, and the PCs float down to the ground, makes it a purely out of combat ability.

Even without that, just make them unwilling to participate in combat. They will only run away.

Lastly, for heroic tier rituals, I’d just keep the levels the same for the most part.

Quickleaf · Jan 29, 2019

happyhermit said:
IIRC though, those eagles wouldn't function in any sort of combat situation (most 4e rituals are at the very least difficult to use in combat). So, not objectively superior, but for travel obviously much better.

Objectively superior, exactly.