A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life

Sadras

Legend
I have remained consistent in my position regarding this realism debate throughout this entire thread, which is what I have been consistently arguing, and I even linked my initial post in this thread. Don't get frustrated with me just because I want to remain on topic.

No, I said that I understand how/why the buzzword is used for the purposes of marketing the mechanics. I think that it is ambiguous what it means but I don't have the same reaction to that as I do with Max because I engage in conversations with people and not with marketing materials.

But it is not just marketing materials, many gamers use the term more realistic. And we have established that your interest lies in intent/play preferences which had nothing to do with my post and your defense is that your position in the thread has remained constant/unchanged. Honestly, your position in this thread, is inconsequential to my post.

I find your lack of good faith disturbing. You asked my reading, and I provided it in good faith. You disagree with my reading. That's fine. But accusing me of being uncharitable and nonsensical in my reading poisons the well, and that will certainly not endear your perspective to me.

Aldarc if you want to base your agreement or disagreement with me on feelings rather than sensible points, that is your prerogative. You replied to my post.

The link you provided uses the language "whether... or" which suggests to me a distinction of elements in the introductory clause as opposed to the causal link you make here. The buzz language is meant to suggest that if you belong in either camp (or both), then the contents of this article will appeal to you (so subscribe/purchase/whatever today).

All you seem to be doing though with this line of thought is making me jump over unnecessary hurdles to get to the heart of the conversation.

You have said you understand the term more realistic but do not like it.
If I ask you what term do you prefer - you jump to intent/play preferences.
That is not at all helpful given that I'm not discussing intent/play preferences which I deem as something that may be related, but separate.
I'm referring to something that attempts, however abstract and via a mechanic, to echo a RL instance within a game.
You want to know why I'm attempting to create said mechanic.
For me those are separate issues.
You expect me to believe that you sincerely cannot see these two things as separate issues. I'm really struggling to take you earnestly here.
And I'm not concerned how an exciting rule might be incidental in providing realism by a mechanic's inclusion or exclusion.
How in the 9 Hells is that discussing my post or the question I posed to you?
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

I believe the idea is that these additional elements (attempting to mirror instances within real life), are to provide a more immersive experience and/or to provide a hardcore form of gaming. At some point these additional elements slow the game down and a balance needs to be struck.

The idea that these additional elements are fixed within the mechanics (daily weather, weapon/armour depreciation...etc) might have some proclaim that their game is 'more realistic' than others whose game does not have such mechanics. Do these systems emulate everything within RL, of course not.

EDIT: I think the argument that everything needs to be as in real life or otherwise nothing is, is a fairly weak one. It does not further conversation or understanding between parties to only speak in absolutes. The use of the word more in "more realism" is indicative that the conversation is not about absolutes.

I've never hinted that there cannot be a scale, I don't think it would make sense to say that a scale isn't possible, in some sense. However it is very difficult, past a very very general point to really state that one is achieving 'greater realism', and to do so must require some fairly tight description of exactly what is being discussed. When [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] simply makes some general statement about weapon breakage making a game 'more realistic', this is simply not automatically true, at all. This is also [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s point, at least to an extent. I can pass some level of judgement on a specific implementation of weapon breakage, or disease, for a specific game, but even then chances are its going to be highly subjective, at best.

For example: is the 1e DMG disease system going to 'increase realism' if you use it? I am not at all certain it will. I don't really know how to approach quantifying the realism it is claimed it will add. Is a highly unrealistic model of disease 'more realistic' than no model at all? Is a model of disease which undermines and distorts a number of already established concepts related to injury and death making the game, overall, more realistic or not? Anyone who claims it does and then insists this is self-evident is pretty much off the reservation IMHO. I can't even really critique that, it is like trying to grade a paper that is in an unknown language, at best.
 

This is in fact exactly the sort of thing I get annoyed with; particularly if my character has any interest in carpentry. :) And sure, there's ways to explain away almost everything but it gets to be a bit much if this has to be done all the time.

Now, see, I am a very completist kind of person and can easily imagine 100's, or even 1000's of similar details which could be, but never are, filled in about a community in a D&D game. Where do people's barrels come from? What are they made of? Who and where is the cooper? Does the blacksmith burn charcoal, and where does he get it from? How many animals does the village have, and what kinds? Where are they housed? Who cares for them? Do they get diseases? If a horse dies is there a knackerman and who does he sell to? Is there a tanner? Miller? What sort of mill is it?

I mean, I could literally go on for HOURS. None of these questions are likely to be answered and most of them are not even answerable, as it would require a vast array of questions about exactly what technology is available in this place and time, open up questions about how magical spell availability would change some of these professions, etc. etc. etc. These become very complex questions very fast and cannot really be answered except in a very cursory fashion which instantly makes me think that someone 'just made up some stuff.' Obviously that IS what happened, so what's really interesting about it? Anything a GM describes is "just explaining it away" because there's no way they wrote out millions of lines of explanations, generated economic and social models, and did the 1000 man-lifetimes of work it would take to truly explicate and analyze everything in that village down to brass tacks. Even if you did, all the inputs to those calculations and explications would still have to be invented largely from whole cloth, since magic and etc. don't actually exist and have such a huge impact on things.

Heck, read some really in-depth material about everyday life in Europe ca. 950 AD. Even for the real world when you go back 1000 years we know so very little about most of the details that our ideas of how things were is mostly guesswork. We are proven radically wrong constantly too, as perusal of any archeology/history journals will very quickly show. That's for the real world, but your fantasy world is 1000's of times less detailed. Just make stuff up! Its the best we can do.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I've never hinted that there cannot be a scale, I don't think it would make sense to say that a scale isn't possible, in some sense. However it is very difficult, past a very very general point to really state that one is achieving 'greater realism', and to do so must require some fairly tight description of exactly what is being discussed. When [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] simply makes some general statement about weapon breakage making a game 'more realistic', this is simply not automatically true, at all. This is also [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s point, at least to an extent. I can pass some level of judgement on a specific implementation of weapon breakage, or disease, for a specific game, but even then chances are its going to be highly subjective, at best.

Sure, if you come up with ridiculous methods to add in things, the realism drops. However, is you assume that the DM as at least halfway competent and is attempting to model reality to some degree, then realism must increase to some degree. An implementation of weapon breakage whenever someone farts would reduce realism. An implementation of breakage when weapons clash with other weapons or other hard objects would model reality to some degree, and therefore must increase realism as it incorporates a degree of reality.

For example: is the 1e DMG disease system going to 'increase realism' if you use it?

It models reality to some degree, so it must increase realism over a system that makes no such attempt.

I don't really know how to approach quantifying the realism it is claimed it will add.

You don't need to know how to quantify it. It's an increase, so even if you can't quantify it, you can still know that it has increased.

Is a highly unrealistic model of disease 'more realistic' than no model at all?

It may not mirror reality, but that isn't necessary for realism to be present. An system that doesn't mirror reality will also be unrealistic to a degree. Here's the thing, though. No system at all = 100% unrealistic. Any system that attempts to model reality in any way is less than 100% unrealistic, and therefore increases realism. So yes, even a highly unrealistic model is more realistic than no model at all.
 

@Sadras

I think that when it comes to the phrase "more realistic" I generally don't mind people using it to try and convey an idea. And I think that generally speaking, I'm likely to know what they mean when they use it. The EN5ider article, in that sense, is clear to me what it is trying to convey.

So the rules for weapon degradation being an attempt to add "more realism" to the game.....I get what is meant, even if I don't really think it's technically accurate. But sometimes for the sake of conversation and for conveying ideas, that kind of phrase can work fine. I do think a lot of the conversation has been wasted by devoting time to this angle. To me, someone saying "I added weapon degradation to my D&D game to make it more realistic" is perfectly fine.

What I don't think is fine is something more like "My D&D game has weapon degradation mechanics, and therefore is more realistic than a game that lacks such mechanics" because I don't think that's true at all and for a myriad of reasons.

So I think the semantic debate has remained relevant to the discussion because some folks will mistake acceptance of the general use of the phrase for acceptance that the phrase is technically accurate. Others want to make sure that distinction is clear.

I think it is one of those issues where people think "I know it when I see it" but then often they haven't actually thought through what all the questions are. As you say, we can sort of guestimate that maybe some sort of weapon breakage/damage/wearing out COULD produce some added realism, but in general it doesn't.

This actually happens in a kind of profound way too. See, WAY back in the earliest days of RPG development, we had this concept. That concept was that our frustrations with the inability to reproduce the kinds of adventures we could read about, or sorts of stories which happened in real life, or were 'true to life' in some sense was caused by an inadequacy of the rules to produce an emulation of real life. The theory went something like realism in role play is produced by a 'true to life' set of incentives and motivations being applied to the character, and that could only be produced by a set of rules which emulated all the features of real life such that the forces acting on the character would be realistic.

The problem of course was twofold. First of all it rapidly became apparent that it is impossible to even get meaningfully more realistic than some highly unrealistic games like D&D, which produce results which are nothing like real life, not at all true to life, in terms of incentives and forces acting on the character. Even much more realistic, in some senses, games like 'Boot Hill' (which really has some reasonably realistic gunfight rules, albeit the game lacks equal detail in other areas) didn't produce results which were in any meaningful way more realistic than D&D. You just cannot model real life well enough with playable rules.

Secondly, and far more important, you cannot really emulate the internal life and mind state of a character. Fundamentally the player is a person sitting at a table somewhere engaging in a form of entertainment. Even if they genuinely endeavor to inhabit their character they can only do so with very limited fidelity. The player is not a product of the character's society, lacks most of the information and background the character would have, and is fundamentally subject to entirely different motivations (just to note the most obvious example, she's not subject to death if she does something dangerous in game).

Thus it was quite quickly realized by game designers and those of us who were seriously interested in the nuances of game play and design, that this very notion, that play could be 'true to life' if only certain degrees of realism could be introduced was clearly an erroneous proposition, or at best utterly unobtainable. RQ and one might say also Tekumel arose as experiments in creating worlds with elaborately detailed aspects in which characters could be rooted in ways that would allow for deeper characterization and creation of more dramatic story arcs (IE better than just 'loot the dungeon' or 'shoot the Earps').

Since then things have moved on several more generations and now we have games like BitD, for example, who's mechanical structure, content, tone, and play procedures are tightly focused on producing a specific sort of RP experience. They are largely shorn of the various impedimentia of rule systems aimed at producing realism via some sort of numerical simulationist mechanics. Instead they employ game design techniques, providing 'currencies', 'bidding processes', mechanical embodiment of elements of drama (IE aspects), etc. These have proven vastly more successful than the earlier approaches, for the most part.

That being said, a very deeply detailed game world, played intensely over a long period of time, can produce fine results. There are plenty of long-running D&D games, for example, where characters have acquired personality and motivation through episodes of play over time. I'm not sure that realism is exceptionally important here though. My experience has been that the most immersive of this type of game I have played in was also the most starkly fantastic and paid very little attention to the sorts of details some posters are insisting are key. So much so that this particular game was almost utterly fantastical and dreamlike in quality at times, so that even writing down accounts of play would be hard (it was also 30 years ago, so my recollection is spotty on many details).
 

T
EDIT: I believe I have thought of one - if the mechanic was badly designed, then sure it might prove that exclusion of such mechanic would make more sense (be more real), given its terrible design. For instance the old fumbles on a 1, which means a fighter with more attacks in a round is prone to more fumbles than one with fewer. Is this what you had in mind?

I would say this is a primary consideration. I have almost never seen a subsystem added to a D&D game which IMHO was actually true enough to life that it added realism to a game. It might have added some degree of authenticity to the experience of play, but not realism. For example the 1e DMG disease system. This system is utterly, wildly, unrealistic. A fact which can be ascertained in minutes by simply calculating how long the average person would survive walking around in a town before dying of a disease. Yet, that system can create a certain degree of authenticity in the sense that a player may feel as though he's experienced the vicitudes of life in a medieval town by contracting a nice case of dysentery and spending three weeks near death (well, OK, 24 hours until someone came around with Cure Disease, but...).

So, what I think needs to be discussed isn't realism, its whether or not a given example of play produced some sort of feeling of authenticity due to some mechanical or narrative feature. Of course, I would argue that, mostly, looking for realistic things to do that is barking up the wrong tree. Mostly I would look for dramatically appropriate things. Things that engage the players, that reflect the character of the genre being played in, etc.
 

Sadras

Legend
Is D&D more realistic for attempting, however abstract the system is, to include AC as opposed to having every attack be an automatic hit?
I realise hit points are a mixed bag but I'm not discussing damage.

EDIT: We cross-posted [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION]. You may have answered your thoughts on this in the post above
 
Last edited:

Sure, if you come up with ridiculous methods to add in things, the realism drops. However, is you assume that the DM as at least halfway competent and is attempting to model reality to some degree, then realism must increase to some degree. An implementation of weapon breakage whenever someone farts would reduce realism. An implementation of breakage when weapons clash with other weapons or other hard objects would model reality to some degree, and therefore must increase realism as it incorporates a degree of reality.

I disagree profoundly. As a mathematician and computer scientist I can tell you that this sort of area is exactly where I am currently engaged.

Back when I was a kid, and (as outlined in another post) I believe in the idea of verisimilitude and 'true to life play' arising out of accurate simulation, I thought "gosh, its impossible to do this with paper and pencil. How about a computer?" So I, and many others, thought things like that we would take D&D's simplistic combat system and simply add 500 more variables to it and code it all as some complicated computer algorithm and produce realistic results. Ha! What fools we were!

You see, that can't be done. Not by some simple process of a human being sitting down and creating a model and simply adding more elaboration to it until they think they've accounted for every variable and coupled them all right. If that was true children would have programmed self-driving cars in about 1987. Marvin Minsky would have produced general purpose AI in plenty of time for HAL 9000 to be booted up in the late 90's, as the movie so optimistically imagined.

Instead what we discovered is that reality is exceedingly intractable, and you can't even get close to analyzing it by any sort of 'mechanics'. Instead, only in the last 10 years, we have made progress via massive application of brute force pattern matching with reinforcement, and high order multivariate analyses.

So, nowadays, I can generate actionable predictions about complex business processes by running clusters of 1000's of servers for weeks at a time performing 500 dimensional correlation analyses against petabyte data sets to produce models which can predict things like who's likely to win a given basketball game on a given day, or which stock to buy, etc.

Imagining that we can make a realistic model of wear and tear on weapons, and the likelihood of them failing at any given time using a few charts is simply not realistic at all. I can tell you that we made a model that predicts when a specific tire on a specific wheel is going to fail, and its pretty darn good, but it has to rely on an analysis that was done of 100's of thousands of full tire lifetimes of other tires, and its inputs include 1000's of data points related to each and every usage of said tire. It is still only maybe accurate to plus or minus 10%. That's good enough to make a business use case. It might well be good enough for an RPG too, but clearly games are far too abstract to support this.
 

Is D&D more realistic for attempting, however abstract the system is, to include AC as opposed to having every attack be an automatic hit?
I realise hit points are a mixed bag but I'm not discussing damage.

EDIT: We cross-posted @AbdulAlhazred. You may have answered your thoughts on this in the post above

I think it is a case of authenticity, and also a case of genre expectations. Armor should work. However, 4e is interesting in being much less clear about this. Most characters, regardless of the actual armor they wear, fall within a fairly narrow range of 'toughness'. Defenses in 4e are more a matter of dramatic requirements vs simulation, yet it feels authentic to the sort of play being envisaged.
 

Sadras

Legend
Yet, that system can create a certain degree of authenticity in the sense that a player may feel as...

/snip

So, what I think needs to be discussed isn't realism, its whether or not a given example of play produced some sort of feeling of authenticity due to some mechanical or narrative feature.

Isn't the shorthand for this realism. Will you be happy with more authentic? more immersive? more RL illusionary? more dramatic? I mean looking for a better description/buzz-word is just playing silly buggers...

Of course, I would argue that, mostly, looking for realistic things to do that is barking up the wrong tree. Mostly I would look for dramatically appropriate things. Things that engage the players, that reflect the character of the genre being played in, etc.

Different conversation and I'm not saying I do not agree with you but that is a separate issue.
 

Remove ads

AD6_gamerati_skyscraper

Remove ads

Recent & Upcoming Releases

Top