A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life

pemerton

Legend
Player: My uncle told me (player consults the module the DM is running) that if we go down the left corridor and open the second door, under the rug is a secret compartment with 85gp and 2 potions of healing inside.

You don't see anything wrong with that? Weak justifications for metagaming are just that. Weak justifications. There absolutely does need to be something further in order for the character to have that knowledge.
This is the sort of thing that drives home some marked differences in assumptions, systems and play approaches.

In particular:

(1) To me this does not register as an issue of metagaming but (at least as I understand what is being presented) as cheating. In running a classic module of the KotB or Castle Amber or Desert of Desolation sort, it is understood that the player does not read the GM-only material, because this is the puzzle the player is expected to solve. Doing otherwise is cheating.

(2) This presupposes that the location of some treasure in a geographical location is established by the GM in advance, but not announced to the players, such that the player might take steps (like peeking at notes or reading the module) to learn it. In a game like Cortex+ Heroic RP, and I would imagine in many DW games, that presupposition does not hold good. In Cortex+ Heroic, for instance, most instances of treasure are going to be either assets or similar established by players as part of the action resolution process, or Scene Distinctions whose existence is clearly announced to the players as part of scene framing.

(3) This presupposes that a player is free to decide what it is that his/her uncle has told the PC, and its usefulness. But in (say) DW, this is not the case: this would be a Spout Lore action and so requires a check as discussed at some length upthread. In BW, the GM could say yes but equally could call for a check (eg on My old uncle's stories-wise) which, if it failed, would license the GM to have some fun with the player about the tall tales told the PC by his/her uncle!​

Thus, this example is located in a very particular play paradigm. There are a variety of other systems and approaches to which it does not straightforwardly generalise.

This also relates to the discussion, upthread, of whether or not D&D is "strong GM decides". To the extent that it permits this sort of thing to come about, it certainly lacks a whole suite of action declaration and resolution systems that other systems use to manage action declarations about stuff my uncle told me.
 

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pemerton

Legend
The real excitement here, were Eowyn my PC, would come not necessarily from somewhat-suicidally standing against a foe I couldn't beat but from the 'aha!' moment: the realization that due to his vulnerability maybe - just maybe - I can beat him where others cannot; with ongoing excitement as the combat plays out and I a) do beat him and b) survive.
Which seems broadly consistent with what I said - the excitement is standing against a dangerous foe, not solving the puzzle of how to hurt it.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
No it's not. I've sat, and I've graded, competitive examinations. They are nothing like combat.
I'll concede this one is probably an exception.

Even as competitoins, they are different - a race or an exam is an attempt to do better than another at a common task. Combat is an attempt to best another by preventing them doing the same to you.
Not always. For example a hidden sniper shooting an unaware sentry from long range is certainly a part of combat, but doesn't really fall into this definition of it.

Furthermore, if all competition is combat then that generates obvious absurdities, like a poetry slam or battle of the bands being part of the combat "pillar" rather than the social "pillar".
I've been in poetry slams and believe me, they're far more combat than social! :)

Further, and this'll come up again below, some things/actions/activities either span multiple aspects simultaneously or move within themselves from one to another.

The 5e "pillars" tell us about the design, and focus of play, of 5e. They are not, and don't even purport to be, a general analytical framework for RPGing.
As written in 5e, no. But I find it a very easy step to take the idea, apply it universally, and use it as a general framework for analysing RPG play; particularly in terms of what happens in the fiction and why, as opposed to the game mechanics that get it there.

So does a joust belong to the social rather than the combat pillar if it is being done to win the heart of an admirer? At least as I understand it, the pillars are meant to be characterised by some combination of what is going on in the fiction and how that is resolved at the table, not what it is hoped success in the action might facilitiate.
I'd see the actual joust as part of the combat aspect, with social overtones and-or potential consequences.

Regardless of how 5e puts it, I'm far more interested here in analysing what actually happens in the fiction and why (and how it might influence what happens next); and for these purposes really don't care what mechanics and-or resolution methods are used at the table in order to bring these events about. This puts me at odds with you, as you seem to be far more concerned with analysing the mechanics and letting the fiction just tag along.

What information is conveyed by this? In 5e D&D, to describe it as "exploration" tells us something about (i) what is happening in the fiction, and (ii) how that will be handled at the table - in particular, via the back-and-forth of free narration between player(s) and GM, and perhaps the occasional check if the player declares that his/her PC looks around, or picks something up, or whatever.

In my Prince Valiant game, there's no back-and-forth here: there's just framing. To describe it as "exploration" in the 5e D&D sense is to actively misdescribe both the techniques in use, and the table experience.
Even there it tells me something of what's happening in the fiction (which is what matters, in the end), regardless of the techniques in use.

In my Traveller game, when checks are made to successfully make an interstellar jump, there is a standard subsystem that is followed, and if the checks are successful then the next stage of play is to narrate the PCs's ship's arrival at the destination world. Again, it has little to nothing in common with 5e's "exploration".
Mechanically, there's little to no overlap. Fine.

Fictionally, however, there's loads of overlap: on success the PCs have just travelled from point A to point B. Travel, even if points A and B are already known places, is part of the exploration aspect.

Huh? I've thought about different elements of play, and how they related to mechanics. long before WotC published 5e.
Where I'm thinking about them not as they relate to mechanics but in how they relate to and define the end-result fiction.

But it's not doing this! It's leading you into repeated misdescriptions and mischaracterisations. For instance, the fact that you envisage travel in my Prince Valiant game as being like 5e D&D's exploration reveals that you don't understand what is happening at the table. It's actually closer to your concept of "downtime", but that woudl also be misleading because it is occurring in the course of what you would call an "adventure".
Again, what's happening at the table is almost irrelevant. What's happening in the fiction is travel, wich means exploration.

The fiction is what drives which aspect(s) is(are) being played at any given moment or in any given scene, and this is what I want to look at for my own games: are the various aspects (combat, social, exploration, downtime) showing up in the fiction too frequently, or not frequently enough, and with what degree of emphasis; and what would or should the right frequency and-or emphasis be for each?

WotC in 4e distinguished exploration from encounters, and distinguished the latter into combat and non-combat resolution. That is a useful framework for 4e; it broadly maps onto the Marvel Heroic RP/Cortex+ Heroic distinction between transition scenes and acion scenes, although the latter have no combat/non-combat breakdown.

It would just distort understanding of 4e to insist that social skill challenges be thought about differently from travel skill challenges, or to insist on analysing travel skill challenges through the lens of exploration as that concept works in 4e.

And mutatis mutandis for other RPG systems.
A social skill challenge and a travel skill challenge use the same mechanics at the table in 4e, but the fiction defines one as social and the other as exploration.

This is relevant for a few reasons.

One, because the outcome and consequences in the fiction are likely to be quite different from a social challenge than a travel challenge.

Two, because in her game a GM and-or the players might want social fiction handled by different means than travel fiction (i.e. the fictional aspect defines what mechanics are used, rather than the reverse - it's always worked this way for combat, frex), meaning either 4e wouldn't be a suitable system in this case or it'd need some tweaking to work as desired.

And three, because it seems often social-aspect play is viewed and approached differently than exploration-aspect play - some tables take social-aspect play very seriously (that's where the drama comes from) while others groove on exploration and anything in the social aspect just means waiting longer for either combat or more exploring.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Which seems broadly consistent with what I said - the excitement is standing against a dangerous foe, not solving the puzzle of how to hurt it.
To a point. The excitement would only start (with a real kickstart!) when I solved the puzzle, then continue as the combat went along.

In musical terms it'd be kind of like a musical note with a very strong attack (solving the puzzle), then a small decay followed by a more or less level sustain (the combat) with perhaps a second kick at the end (when the Witch-King goes down), and a fairly quick release (when the fight is over).

(if the above terms are unfamilar check this link https://www.erikkmckenzie.com/adsr - scroll down to the bottom of the page for a clear diagram)
 

S'mon

Legend
Exploration - finding out stuff
Combat - beating people/things.
Social - interacting with people. This typically involves elements of finding out stuff, beating people, but also mutually beneficial interaction - alliance building, mate-bonding, friendship et al.

Travelling a known route isn't Exploration, but travelling an unknown route & encountering new places along the way does have an Exploration element I think, in 5e D&D terms. Of course if it's abstracted - line on the map style - then it's not Exploration, it's closer to Downtime, as Mr P noted.
 

pemerton

Legend
some things/actions/activities either span multiple aspects simultaneously or move within themselves from one to another.

<snip>

Regardless of how 5e puts it, I'm far more interested here in analysing what actually happens in the fiction and why

<snip>

The fiction is what drives which aspect(s) is(are) being played at any given moment or in any given scene, and this is what I want to look at for my own games: are the various aspects (combat, social, exploration, downtime) showing up in the fiction too frequently, or not frequently enough, and with what degree of emphasis; and what would or should the right frequency and-or emphasis be for each?

A social skill challenge and a travel skill challenge use the same mechanics at the table in 4e, but the fiction defines one as social and the other as exploration.
I honestly don't see the point of trying to establish some general classification of adventure fiction as either fighting, talking or exploring, especially when you concede that some events and activities are plural in their character.

These aren't classifications that I'm used to from criticism, and to me they don't seem to shed any interesting light. I've already pointed out that it doesn't cover building and repairing things - simply because this has never been a big part of D&D's action (cf Traveller, which - being set in a highly technological society - obviously treats this sort of thing very differently). Or, to give a different example, in my last Prince Valiant session there was a boar hunt, which created an opportunity for the PCs to shame an NPC they didn't like, and also an opportunity from some rivalry among the PCs as to who would get the kill. In that same session, there was a joust which provided an opportunity for making some new friendships and reinforcing some established enmities.

It seems to me to add nothing to my account of these events to try to decide whether they should be classed as combat, social or interaction. That is simply not a useful framework for either criticism or for play. (In 4e this could easily have been run as a skill challenge, moving between different social, Nature, and combat skills/abilities. I don't know what the proper way to handle it in 5e would be, but my sense is that, by default, it would require more GM manipulation of the fiction.)

And I don't know what it would mean for there to be too much, or not enough, of one or another sort of fiction. The fiction is what the fiction is. If players want more talking, then - provided the system allows for it - they'll declare such actions; likewise if they want more fighting. To me that seems a total non-problem.

you seem to be far more concerned with analysing the mechanics and letting the fiction just tag along
To reiterate what I just said: in my experience players will create the fiction that they want, consistently with what the mechanics make room for. As GM I don't need to police the fiction; but when deciding what game to play, and when adjduciating a system as GM, I do need to understand how its mechanics work.

As an example, consider the BW Circles mechanic, which pertains to encountering old friends and enemies as one goes about one's business. In 5e D&D, such matters are an entirely GM-side decision; but in Burning Wheel, such things are frequently the outcome of a Circles check made by a player - and once such a mechanic is introduced, players will use it and that sort of thing will become a bigger part of play than it might otherwise be.

So if I want more Conan-style or Arthurian style chance encounters, then I should play a game with something like a Circles mechanic. Similarly, if I think a game with more talking would be fun, then I should play a game which enables players to change the fiction by declaring talky stuff. To repeat again what I said, in my experience if the mechanics are there, then - assuming the players are at all interested - the fiction will take care of itself.

(Also, re Circles checks: is this social or exploration? In 5e D&D the question doesn't even arise, because chance encounters don't fall under any of the pillars, being an entirely GM-side matter. In BW, the question doesn't make any sense, because BW doesn't have distinct "social" and "exploration" pillars. This is another example that illustrates the non-ubiquity of the 5e pillars.)
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
This is the sort of thing that drives home some marked differences in assumptions, systems and play approaches.

In particular:

(1) To me this does not register as an issue of metagaming but (at least as I understand what is being presented) as cheating. In running a classic module of the KotB or Castle Amber or Desert of Desolation sort, it is understood that the player does not read the GM-only material, because this is the puzzle the player is expected to solve. Doing otherwise is cheating.​


Metagaming is bringing in knowledge that the player has that the character doesn't and having the character act on it. That's the definition. My example is no different than a player reading the Monster Manual and using the puzzles attached to the monsters in game. In both cases the player is going to books that the DM is supposed to use, learning knowledge, and then bringing it in for the PC to use.

(2) This presupposes that the location of some treasure in a geographical location is established by the GM in advance, but not announced to the players, such that the player might take steps (like peeking at notes or reading the module) to learn it. In a game like Cortex+ Heroic RP, and I would imagine in many DW games, that presupposition does not hold good. In Cortex+ Heroic, for instance, most instances of treasure are going to be either assets or similar established by players as part of the action resolution process, or Scene Distinctions whose existence is clearly announced to the players as part of scene framing.

Yep. Sort of like how monster weaknesses are established in advanced, not announced to the players, such that the player might take extra steps like reading the Monster Manual to learn it.

(3) This presupposes that a player is free to decide what it is that his/her uncle has told the PC, and its usefulness. But in (say) DW, this is not the case: this would be a Spout Lore action and so requires a check as discussed at some length upthread. In BW, the GM could say yes but equally could call for a check (eg on My old uncle's stories-wise) which, if it failed, would license the GM to have some fun with the player about the tall tales told the PC by his/her uncle!

[MENTION=6785785]hawkeyefan[/MENTION] has said that the player should be allowed to do this and that the DM is a jerk for not allowing it. He has also made the claim that it's "Mother May I" to say no.
 

pemerton

Legend
Exploration - finding out stuff
Combat - beating people/things.
Social - interacting with people. This typically involves elements of finding out stuff, beating people, but also mutually beneficial interaction - alliance building, mate-bonding, friendship et al.
To be honest, even in the context of 5e D&D this is looking to me like a dubious system of classification in the way that you present it, because social can include both exploration and combat.

To me, it seems fairly clear that the utility of the "3 pillars" is not in identifying categories of fictinal activity, but in identifying ways of handling stuff at the table. In particular, as I understand it, the 5e "3 pillars" are an attempt to capture in a single classificatory scheme some D&D traditions concerning how different sorts of action-resolution are handled.

Combat pertains to the sort of stuff that is traditionally resolved using the to hit, saving throw and hit point mechanics. For these reasons, some but not all spell casting falls under the combat pillar.

Exploration pertains to the sort of stuff that is traditionally resolved using classic dungeoneering and hex-crawl adjudication, which includes: answering questions by reference to the referee's map and key; rolling dice for search attempts, listening at doors, and avoiding getting lost; and the GM describing new situations as the PCs move into them.

Social pertains to PC-NPC interactions, which many tables traditionally resolve by free roleplaying.

It's fairly clear that the boundaries of these pillars, even within a very traditional D&D paradigm, are highly porous. When exploration results in the PCs triggering a trap, for instance, combat processes might be used to determine the result (eg a saving throw to avoid damage). When NPCs are encountered, the use of a random reaction roll may help determine the outcome of what occurs in subsequent social interaction, but as a method of resolution reallly has more in common with the methods of the exploration pillar.

Then there is a case like determining surprise: does this belong to exploration or to combat? I don't see that there is anything meaningful at stake in this question - it's "angels on the head of a pin" territory.

And there are also elements of traditional D&D that seem to me to fall under none of the pillars - eg classic D&D wilderness evasion (based on a % chance rolled periodcially modified by various factors - charts for this are found in AD&D and Marsh/Cook Expert, and maybe in OD&D too though I'm not pulling out my books to check at the moment). This is not social because not free roelplaying of the traditional sort. It's not exploration. But it's not combat in the traditional sense either, in that it doesn't reference any of the standard combat notions like to hit chance, damage, etc. Again, insisting that this particular mechanic must fall under one of the three pillars seems to me to add nothing to our understanding of D&D play, nor to be useful in thinking about how to GM or play the game.

It follows from what I've just said, and frankly I think should be pretty uncontroversial, that a system that doesn't follow these traditional D&D understandings of how certain sorts of actions are adjudicated isn't usefully thought of in terms of the "3 pillars". So in 4e, for instance, if social encounters are being resolved as skill challenges, and if searching for stuff and avoiding getting lost is being resolved as skill challenges, then GMs and players need good advice on how to adapt the skill challenge mechanics to this variety of stuff, but no clarity in analysis or advice is gained by distinguishing "social" from "exploration". (And the odd-one-out category of classic evasion would also, in 4e, be just another thing to be resolved as a skill challenge. Likewise building and repairing stuff, although depending on details this can suffer a bit from a lack of clarity in respect of salient skills - in my game Dungeoneering ends up picking up a fair bit of this slack.)

In BW, there is a social conflict resolution system called Duel of Wits that, in mechanical framing, is very similar to the combat resolution mechanics. And the combat resolution mechanics distinguish between melee (Fight!) and missile skirmishing (Range and Cover). So if one wants to talk about "pillars" here at all, then skirmish combat is as much a distinct pillar from melee combat as either is from social conflict. But all three have more in common than the 5e combat and social pillars, as all three are based on a common framework of blind declaration within a quasi-rocks/paper/scissors opposed check framework.

None of the above is a criticism of 5e's treatment of its pillars. But it is a criticism of the idea that these provide any general framework for thinking about RPGing.

Travelling a known route isn't Exploration, but travelling an unknown route & encountering new places along the way does have an Exploration element I think, in 5e D&D terms. Of course if it's abstracted - line on the map style - then it's not Exploration, it's closer to Downtime, as Mr P noted.
If travelling a known route in 5e isn't exploration - and clearly it isn't combat or social - then we have another activity which falls outside the 3 pillars. Which is fine as far as it goes, but if such examples proliferate then the utility of the classification becomes more doubtful.

What is interesting to me is that, if it isn't exploration, then that suggets it's not meant to be a big element of play at all, and should be handled line-on-a-map/"downtime" style until something occurs (whether by way of player action declaration or by way of GM stipulation) that does genuinely fall under one of the pillars. I wonder if this is the standard way of playing 5e, though, or if some (many?) tables do treat travelling known routs as exploration.

I think that travelling an unknown route should count as exploration in 5e D&D, because of the resolution systems that should activate: both the players asking questions and getting GM answers, plus the stuff like spotting things, avoiding getting lost, etc that I identified above as traditional components of D&D's "exploration" pillar.

And we are likeminded in thinking that in an RPG where travel even along new routes is handed simply through fairly quick free narration, with none of those traditional D&D methods being deployed, then we don't have something that counts as 5e-type exploration. This describes most of the travel in my Prince Valiant game, all of the travel in my Marvel Heroic game, most fo the travel in my Cortex+ Heroic Fantasy game, some of the travel in my BW game (ie if I've "said 'yes'" rather than framed a check), and interstellar travel in my Classic Traveller game.
 


Aldarc

Legend
The desire to classify every activity in RPGs to the artificial categories of combat, exploration, social, or downtime is only slightly less absurd than the scene in Donnie Darko where Donnie is forced by his teacher to categorize the hypothetical scenario of someone finding a lost wallet but keeping the money inside in terms of either 'Fear' or 'Love.' We recognize it at once as a flaw, and we sympathize with Donnie's frustrations with his teacher's naivety (and her subsequent threat of punishment for not complying).

The Three Pillars of Play strike me as a potentially useful tool for getting new GMs to think about different aspects of play, but not necessarily something that accurately reflects either a descriptive or prescriptive state of the game. I think that even when people complain about fighters have a lack of options outside of the combat pillar reflects instead a frustration regarding the fighter's restricted class options for authorizing or establishing changes in the fiction.
 

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