A 5e Swordmage?

doctorbadwolf said:

I am curious about both, but I wanted to start by talking about how a true swordmage could be built in 5e as it is, and from there see what is still missing. I think a new class with a purpose built spell list, and some new features to make it really sing, would be a fairly small amount of work.
I'd make it an Int caster who chooses between Strength and Dex just like a fighter, gets cantrips, doesn't get Extra Attack and instead gets something like a bonus action attack when casting a cantrip, and get's either a d8 or d10 hit die, with at least one subclass or Aegis option that boosts durability into real tank range, but other options that focus more on mobility and hitting hard, or control, etc.

I'd probably give the base class a Mark ability, but have the Aegis options determine what it does beyond what a Mark does in the DMG optional rule.

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Not a perfect fit, but the Magus class has a fair amount of those features.

Hit Die: d8
Spellcasting Stat: Varies by subclass (chosen at 1st level). 3 Int subclasses, 2 Cha, 1 Wis.
Cantrips: Yes. Gains 3-4 weapon attack cantrips (like Booming Blade) per subclass. Also can make a BA attack after casting a cantrip at 7th level.
Str or Dex: Can use either, but favors Dex since it doesn't have heavy armor proficiency.
Aegis: The base class can place an Aegis on the target that gives a small, scaling AC bonus. Each subclass gains the ability to remove the Aegis as a reaction on triggering damage to activate a larger effect. This effective is offensive or defensive based on the subclass.

Xeviat said:

I've been convinced that a class could work. I still would like to see a better name, and a story for their placement in the world. I'm looking at Book of Nine Swords for some ideas here. Whatever this class is called, I imagine low level members of it, and maybe one of it's subclasses, are warriors whose skill with their weapon seems (is) supernatural. This could draw inspiration from Kensei, or from anime warriors who can cut fees and trees from yards away. This could make it encroach on the monk's territory, so one would have to be careful.

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From what I'm gathering of the class, its not like the Fighter, whose level of skill can match supernatural powers, or the Monk, who is supernaturally/magically skilled. The Swordmage seems to be about outright magic spells, just with a melee bent. Teleporting, blasting fire through their sword, that sort of thing. Watching the class in combat, I think that it would be pretty obvious that they're relying on magic powers rather than pure skill.

I say make it a half caster, but give it a smite-like ability to burn spell slots so a player could play the class more simply (and to make it very clear that their spell slots are part of their offensive power).

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I'd suggest against a smite-like ability to burn spell slots. The class will have actual spells delivered by weapon blow, and so the smite ability will either be less powerful that using the spell slot to cast one of those spells (making it less useful), or it would be more powerful, in which case the actual spells won''t be used.
Think of the current problem that the Paladin has: Paladins seem to use their actual smite spells very rarely because using the spell slot in a Divine Smite is regarded as superior.

Cap'n Kobold said:

From what I'm gathering of the class, its not like the Fighter, whose level of skill can match supernatural powers, or the Monk, who is supernaturally/magically skilled. The Swordmage seems to be about outright magic spells, just with a melee bent. Teleporting, blasting fire through their sword, that sort of thing. Watching the class in combat, I think that it would be pretty obvious that they're relying on magic powers rather than pure skill.

I'd suggest against a smite-like ability to burn spell slots. The class will have actual spells delivered by weapon blow, and so the smite ability will either be less powerful that using the spell slot to cast one of those spells (making it less useful), or it would be more powerful, in which case the actual spells won''t be used.
Think of the current problem that the Paladin has: Paladins seem to use their actual smite spells very rarely because using the spell slot in a Divine Smite is regarded as superior.

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For the first, I more mean where to draw inspiration for the class.

If the entire class is built on spells delivered by a weapon, then I think they'll need to be a full caster like the Book of 9 swords classes.

doctorbadwolf said:

In the 4e Forgotten Realms Player’s Guide, we meet the Swordmage. A class that combines magic and martial prowess seamlessly for the first time in DnD (IMO).

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War Mage or Blade Song....they both cover this...otherwise become an Eldritch Knight.

Aiden_Keller_ said:

War Mage or Blade Song....they both cover this...otherwise become an Eldritch Knight.

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Did you even bother to read? Because it doesn't, and they why's been covered in detail.

Aiden_Keller_ said:

War Mage or Blade Song....they both cover this...otherwise become an Eldritch Knight.

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There's a whole 3 page thread about how those don't "cover this"...so...no.

TwoSix said:

Not a perfect fit, but the Magus class has a fair amount of those features.

Hit Die: d8
Spellcasting Stat: Varies by subclass (chosen at 1st level). 3 Int subclasses, 2 Cha, 1 Wis.
Cantrips: Yes. Gains 3-4 weapon attack cantrips (like Booming Blade) per subclass. Also can make a BA attack after casting a cantrip at 7th level.
Str or Dex: Can use either, but favors Dex since it doesn't have heavy armor proficiency.
Aegis: The base class can place an Aegis on the target that gives a small, scaling AC bonus. Each subclass gains the ability to remove the Aegis as a reaction on triggering damage to activate a larger effect. This effective is offensive or defensive based on the subclass.

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That ain't bad! I like that Aegis mechanic.

Cap'n Kobold said:

From what I'm gathering of the class, its not like the Fighter, whose level of skill can match supernatural powers, or the Monk, who is supernaturally/magically skilled. The Swordmage seems to be about outright magic spells, just with a melee bent. Teleporting, blasting fire through their sword, that sort of thing. Watching the class in combat, I think that it would be pretty obvious that they're relying on magic powers rather than pure skill.

I'd suggest against a smite-like ability to burn spell slots. The class will have actual spells delivered by weapon blow, and so the smite ability will either be less powerful that using the spell slot to cast one of those spells (making it less useful), or it would be more powerful, in which case the actual spells won''t be used.
Think of the current problem that the Paladin has: Paladins seem to use their actual smite spells very rarely because using the spell slot in a Divine Smite is regarded as superior.

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That's about right, yeah.

The class wants a good suite of spells that use a weapon, as well as spells that don't interfere with attacking while making your prowess more impressive in some way. Absorb Elements is a must, but something that responds to incoming damage by teleporting is also good. Maybe one that has you switch places with an ally within 30 feet as a reaction, when an ally is attacked, or with any creature when a creature within 30 feet of your is attacked, so you could make an attack against you target an enemy instead! Just, poof, and suddenly that sword swing against you is hitting the attacker's ally, and you're standing where the new target was standing a second ago.

Anyway, yeah, I think it needs full casting, even if it isn't as strong a spellcasting in some ways as classes like wizard and cleric. High level spells might apply defensive and offensive aqnd utility benefits that are normally single target/self to all allies within x feet, as well as some of the existing high level spells that deal in teleportation, defensive buffs, magical weapony stuff, etc.

What about a spell that lets you teleport 20-30 ft, and you create a wall of force connecting where you start to where you stop, that deals spell level appropriate damage to anything in the space of the wall, and throws them away ten feet? Minimum level on that would be something like 5?

Anyway, there's a ton of potential, and a lot of the new spells it would need could be shared with other classes, while leaving plenty that are unique to it.