5E Epic Monsters: Cerberus (5E) - Page 5
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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathaniel Lee View Post
    You're certainly free to refer to vampires as "draculas" if you wish, but it's not what the overwhelming majority of people who even know what a vampire and who Dracula is do.
    And I will continue to do so. Not that I have anywhere near the influence of Squirrel Girl, but I can continue to spread awareness where I can. In time, there will be fewer and fewer people who are unaware of the convention.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathaniel Lee View Post
    You're referring to a piece of fan fiction:
    Just because a work is derivative, that doesn't make it any lesser. In this case, the quality of both writing and world-building out-strip the original author by light years.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Saelorn View Post
    In time, there will be fewer and fewer people who are unaware of the convention.
    It's not really a convention, though, if only an extreme minority of the relevant population knows about it and/or cares to use it. This really sounds like you having heard a term being used, having adopted it for yourself, and now hoping you can get it over so it's the "cool" term to use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saelorn View Post
    Just because a work is derivative, that doesn't make it any lesser. In this case, the quality of both writing and world-building out-strip the original author by light years.
    For the purposes of this particular discussion and how the work was represented in the debate, it actually does make it exponentially lesser, your opinion on the quality of the work notwithstanding.

    Citing "Harry Potter" as a reference to support your notion of the commonality of using the name Cerberus to refer to a class of beings in pop culture is at best disingenuous if the work that you're referring to is not actually the ubiquitous, widely admired, and greatly respected work of J.K. Rowling and instead the significantly less ubiquitous, derivative work of someone who has little standing in the literary world (said author's work in the field of artificial intelligence notwithstanding).

    The work in question is likely the only one you'll find where the mythological three-headed dog is referred to as "the Cerberus."
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saelorn View Post
    Did you not watch Venture Bros? Do you not read The Unbeatable Squirrel Girl? I'm sorry to hear that.
    I am familiar with Venture Bros., but never really watched it. I am completely unfamiliar with The Unbeatable Squirrel Girl - anything like Danger Mouse

    Quote Originally Posted by Saelorn View Post
    The thing is, everyone knows who Dracula is, but nobody knows which Bob you're talking about. If I describe someone as looking like a Dracula, then you should know exactly what I mean, right down to their fashion sense.
    However, I think in these times there are a lot of people who know what a vampire is, but not Dracula. I think they have moved passed that. There are lots of vampire stories in many different media that have little to nothing to do with Dracula and everyone knows what your talking about - Lestat being a good example. People know what vampires are, whether or not they know who Dracula is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saelorn View Post
    It's a very well-written scene. Harry and Professor Quirrell are standing in front of Fluffy, discussing how to get past it, and Harry suggests that putting it to sleep with music would work if it's anything like the Cerberus from the Orpheus story; to which Quirrell responds by using avada kedavra on it. When Harry worries that leaving a dead Cerberus in the room might raise suspicions, Professor Quirrell raises it as an inferius.
    Damn, I don't remember that at all. I only read it once to my kids at bedtime, maybe I need to re-read it. I think I have been too poisoned by the movies, I don't even remember Quirrell and Harry encountering Fluffy together.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Saelorn View Post
    That's just how language evolves. You don't blow your nose on tissue paper; you use a kleenex. You don't use a self-adhesive bandage to cover a minor wound; you use a band-aid. Likewise, you don't fight vampires; you fight draculas. Genericization happens.
    Also, this "genericization" of Dracula as a reference for vampires as a class of entities won't ever happen because of the fact that the association of the character Dracula as "the" vampire is not nearly strong enough.

    Band-Aid still has a strong enough brand recognition to be "the" self-adhesive bandage, but when people hear the word "vampire" there are just _WAY_ too many strong characters out there. Most will think of the other properties like Buffy, Anne Rice's characters, True Blood, Underworld, and at this point even a character like Strahd.

    Nobody is going to watch the Twilight movies and think "good Lord these glittering Draculas are so stupid."
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathaniel Lee View Post
    Fluffy is not referred to as "a cerberus" or "the cerberus". He is referred to very specifically as a "three-headed dog." The name "Cerberus" is not used in either the book or the movie.
    That is what I thought, but @Saelorn seems to disagree with you. Now I have to go and try to find the book.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathaniel Lee View Post
    It actually breathes petrification gas. Its power is a weird variation of its namesake mythological creature. And this has bothered me for a long time as well. I'm curious to learn about the origin of this particular monster.
    I posted the origin with link in post #20

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saelorn View Post
    I'm not a big fan of attaching images in these forums, but here's part of a comic from like five years ago:
    Isn't the point that he is wrong / counter-culture here?

    I really have to agree with @Nathaniel Lee on this one. Popular culture (as well as folk-lore) far and away reinforce the group as Vampires with a particular individual named Dracula. Draculas is not a common usage and unlike to gain ground based on the prevalence an popularity of Vampire. Heck, I would argue you more of chance of referring to vampires as nosferatu than draculas.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by MechaTarrasque View Post
    There are a couple of versions of the story. The one I am thinking of has Herc freaked out about Ladon (Bernard Evslin describes him as a serpent with a mile-long gullet), so he plays it safe and shoots it from a distance. He needed Atlas' help because "no mortal could pick the apples" (why he didn't use the old Hercules charm on Atlas' daughters is never explained, although maybe after the Amazon thing, he was a little leery of that tactic).

    Speaking of Bernard Evslin, his version of Cerberus (both in the Cerberus book and the Sphinx book) is a good base for a high-level monster.
    Ok - so not the source material, but a modern (relatively) authors retelling of the tales. I noticed in his wikipedia page: "Evslin's Monsters of Mythology series, published between 1987 and 1991, retold many stories from ancient mythology, often by altering the plot of the stories."

    I think that explains why I am unfamiliar with that version. Thanks for giving the context!

    EDIT: One thing I do like about the greek myths is that there is usually more than one version of the story (sometimes many). I wish D&D did this more with its "history." I don't want the truth, I want a version (or two) of the truth.
    Last edited by dave2008; Tuesday, 19th February, 2019 at 11:27 PM.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saelorn View Post
    And I will continue to do so. Not that I have anywhere near the influence of Squirrel Girl, but I can continue to spread awareness where I can. In time, there will be fewer and fewer people who are unaware of the convention.
    But it is not really the convention. The convention is "vampire" and there are strong brands outside of Dracula that prevent him becoming the name for vampires. I think it is unlikely to take root with the strength of the term vampire and no good reason to abandon it in favor of draculas. I maintain the language is evolving away from draculas as the know of Dracula himself becomes less and less important. Vampires stand on their own merits without Dracula.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saelorn View Post
    Just because a work is derivative, that doesn't make it any lesser. In this case, the quality of both writing and world-building out-strip the original author by light years.
    It is lesser in terms of the general publics knowledge of it. I can't discuss the other merits of said fan-fiction, because I have no idea what your talking about. It is also rather obscure and odd to claim it as part of the story when it was not part of the original author's work. How would I have known that you were not talking about the original work? It just seems a bit like your pushing an agenda now. I don't know, maybe I'm overreacting.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave2008 View Post
    Ok - so not the source material, but a modern (relatively) authors retelling of the tales. I noticed in his wikipedia page: "Evslin's Monsters of Mythology series, published between 1987 and 1991, retold many stories from ancient mythology, often by altering the plot of the stories."

    I think that explains why I am unfamiliar with that version. Thanks for giving the context!
    Evslin has several interesting takes (I would definitely recommend them). His Cerberus, in particular, was a good (although sad) one: As a young monster, Cerberus befriends a mortal girl; Hades wants Cerberus as a guard dog, and so has the girl killed; Cerberus rampages through the realms of the dead, killing off a bunch of Hades' monsters (thus deserving a high CR); Hades promises to bring her back to life in a 1,000 years if Cerberus serves as his guard dog during that period, and the book ends without us ever finding out if he ever got her back.

    Hades questionable human resources practices gives Cerberus a chance to rampage through various monsters of the underworld in the Sphinx book (although sadly Cerberus and the Sphinx never get to fight, although they are on opposite sides).

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