The Pitfalls of D&D Beyond Data - Page 16
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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrogReaver View Post
    Also to anyone that cares: Colorless marbles are referred to as Clear.
    Clear = Transparent
    Opaque (not able to be seen through; not transparent.)

    Clear is not the opposite of color its the opposite of opaque.

    Remember this:
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonCross View Post
    So while your one of the more interesting posters to read you do have a tendency to get a bit dismissive of posters based on off point arguments like posts.
    Yep... your picked an argument that is vague and abstract to get me to agree with something I don't believe then justify your argument on its irrelevance.

    My point from the post stands. You have a subclass or you don't have subclass. Trying to say that sorting marbles on a color scale because you don't consider clear a color when in fact a clear red marble would be red with transparency is distraction from the fact that if a class does not have a subclass it does not count as a class with subclass.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonCross View Post
    Clear = Transparent
    Opaque (not able to be seen through; not transparent.)

    Clear is not the opposite of color its the opposite of opaque.

    Remember this:


    Yep... your picked an argument that is vague and abstract to get me to agree with something I don't believe then justify your argument on its irrelevance.

    My point from the post stands. You have a subclass or you don't have subclass. Trying to say that sorting marbles on a color scale because you don't consider clear a color when in fact a clear red marble would be red with transparency is distraction from the fact that if a class does not have a subclass it does not count as a class with subclass.
    From my point of view, a clear marble is a colorless marble. So when I say clear marble and you make a big deal about clear vs colorless I'm viewing that as a big off point argument that served no purpose other than as an attempted dismissal of the post it was replying to.

    Sometimes it's a matter of perspective

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrogReaver View Post
    It's not an assumption. Subclass Distribution is not a delimeter. But I guess we have at least identified the core of our disagreement.

    Okay, so for this specific example: How would you title a graph like there subclass graph but that also included a section for "no subclass"?.
    This is what I had stated earlier based on your issues but I am in a rush so its horribly unrefined and not really what you are looking for just a cut and paste.

    "Most Popular Class/Subclass combinations (Active single class characters including those without subclass, only from players with access to all classes and subclasses)"

    I will try and get you a real answer when I have time.

    Edit: I did as requested below, but I go on to explain why I don't think that is the correct direction.

    "Class Distribution broken down by subclass when applicable (Active Characters)"

    So a Level 2 fighter is just a "Fighter" but a level 3 fighter would be called by subclass like "Eldritch Knight".

    However, I don't see the point of looking at this way. Like you said, multi-class characters would be counted twice unless you designate only characters with one class. That said having one for classes then breaking individual classes by subclass on different slides would be more precise. You could then say, Fighters are the most popular class and Champions are the most popular subclass in fighters. If you want to make that more comparable between classes you put a number under the percent. Then you could look at the number of Champions on the Fighter Class chart and compare that to the number of Rogue Thieves if you wanted to make that comparison. Also, you could under the Percent Total # / Non-Multiclass # / Multi-class Number for each listing under fighter and the individual sub classes. That then lets you say, "well yes the standard fighter is on a lot more characters than the champion but is clearly a 2 level dip since they are mostly multi-classes" because the data will be present.

    In the End I don't think trying to label one slide with all the classes and subclass is a good idea. Looking at your question, it seems to me you could put more useful information on 1 "Class Distribution(Active Characters) " and 12 "X class Distribution by subclass when applicable (Active Characters) " with Total # / Non-Multiclass # / Multi-class Number # under the name and percent.
    Last edited by ClaytonCross; Thursday, 14th February, 2019 at 01:47 PM.

  4. #154
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    On a side note Clayton, it strikes me you may never have actually seen or paid attention to what is called a clear marble. When I was a kid my mamaw kept a jar full of various marbles that I would play with. What is referred to as a clear marble is shown below

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  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonCross View Post
    This is what I had stated earlier based on your issues but I am in a rush so its horribly unrefined and not really what you are looking for just a cut and paste.

    "Most Popular Class/Subclass combinations (Active single class characters including those without subclass, only from players with access to all classes and subclasses)"

    I will try and get you a real answer when I have time.
    I'll wait for a better one. Thanks. If you really think "Subclass Distribution (Active Characters)" is sufficient for their graph surely the sufficient title for a graph like I asked about couldn't be that much longer or different than that? IMO. Reply when you have time

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrogReaver View Post
    I'll wait for a better one. Thanks. If you really think "Subclass Distribution (Active Characters)" is sufficient for their graph surely the sufficient title for a graph like I asked about couldn't be that much longer or different than that? IMO. Reply when you have time
    Back from Valentines day with the Miss, but I found time to update my answer above.

    Also, we had those marbles in vases in my house too... funny thing is when you stack them enough you realize they have a hue, just as the ones in the picture above are I suspect white when you put enough of them in the same vase. of course because they are transparent you can shine a light through them and get a spectrum of colors. Clear is not a color, it is a quality of a color, a clear blue shy is still blue but is also clear. If clear was "colorless" clear blue water or sky would not be a thing since it could not be colorless and blue at the same time. Just like Dark blue is not two colors its one blue. Dark is a descriptor of color state. So when I tell you we had clear white marbles like above and clear blue marbles mixed in the same jar both with only the slightest hue and visible when you stacked them you know what I mean.

    So sleep. Have a good night ... or day if your on the other side of the world.
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  7. #157
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    @ClaytonCross , I give up. When you cant even admit there are such a thing as clear colorless marbles theres no hope for our conversation. Hope you have a good day.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrogReaver View Post
    @ClaytonCross , I give up. When you cant even admit there are such a thing as clear colorless marbles theres no hope for our conversation. Hope you have a good day.
    Pretty sure hes saying there are clear colored marbles so a list covering colors would imply colorless isnt listed in the distribution but all marbles with colors (whether clear or opaque) would be included.

    When you list a distribution of subclasses, that automatically implies only those with subclasses. No need to say you are excluding those without a subclass as that is implied by the title and it would be redundant to say "where applicable". Of course its "where applicable". Ordinary English implies that and it's not a legal document just a short heading.
    XP ClaytonCross, Hussar gave XP for this post

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistwell View Post
    Pretty sure hes saying there are clear colored marbles so a list covering colors would imply colorless isnt listed in the distribution but all marbles with colors (whether clear or opaque) would be included.

    When you list a distribution of subclasses, that automatically implies only those with subclasses. No need to say you are excluding those without a subclass as that is implied by the title and it would be redundant to say "where applicable". Of course its "where applicable". Ordinary English implies that and it's not a legal document just a short heading.
    Yeah.

    When i say one graph titled class distribution and another titled sub-class distribution, i knew that we were looking at different datasets due to knowledge of how sub-classes are acquired. If i had seen a huge honking "no sub-class yet section i would have reconsidered but lacking that, it was obvious.

    The, life cleric surge gave me pause but not because it was higher than the cleric (that made sense.) It gave me pause cuz it made me think multi-class is info we need to know cuz how much of life cleric is from a quick dip into life cleric for druids, pallies, or most anyone wanting its huge one-level-dip boosts.

    Might go back and eye those sub-class and class charts with a nod to mapping "high profit dips" to the top sections.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrogReaver View Post
    Also to anyone that cares: Colorless marbles are referred to as Clear.
    Clear = Transparent
    Opaque (not able to be seen through; not transparent.)

    Clear is not the opposite of color its the opposite of opaque.

    Remember this:
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonCross View Post
    So while your one of the more interesting posters to read you do have a tendency to get a bit dismissive of posters based on off point arguments like posts.
    Yep... your picked an argument that is vague and abstract to get me to agree with something I don't believe then justify your argument on its irrelevance.

    My point from the post stands. You have a subclass or you don't have subclass. Trying to say that sorting marbles on a color scale because you don't consider clear a color when in fact a clear red marble would be red with transparency is distraction from the fact that if a class does not have a subclass it does not count as a class with subclass.

    Quote Originally Posted by FrogReaver View Post
    From my point of view, a clear marble is a colorless marble. So when I say clear marble and you make a big deal about clear vs colorless I'm viewing that as a big off point argument that served no purpose other than as an attempted dismissal of the post it was replying to.

    Sometimes it's a matter of perspective
    Not in this case. You are trying to create a tangent argument that is irrelevant to the thread to demonstrate I am not personally valuable enough to have a point....

    Quote Originally Posted by FrogReaver View Post
    @ClaytonCross , I give up. When you cant even admit there are such a thing as clear colorless marbles theres no hope for our conversation. Hope you have a good day.
    ...yep. Just as I said, I mentioned this already because I saw this coming based on your past behavior. So I added the full comments to the top for context where you ignore the real statement at the bottom to argue a side argument you brought up to prove a point by making an unequal comparison that you either expected me to buy despite not being an adequate parallel. Then when I didn't you dismiss me as unreasonable for not agreeing with something that is not relevant to the thread and that was never more than an example... a bad example.

    As I stated above, You ether have a subclass or you do not. It is an absolute. That being relevant to the conversion and on point the thread, do you have any argument against that?

    Secondly, Do you have counter argument to my post response to your questions that you have ignored?
    -Reposted here for your conveyance-

    Quote Originally Posted by FrogReaver View Post
    It's not an assumption. Subclass Distribution is not a delimeter. But I guess we have at least identified the core of our disagreement.

    Okay, so for this specific example: How would you title a graph like there subclass graph but that also included a section for "no subclass"?.
    -sniped, place holder text-

    I did as requested below, but I go on to explain why I don't think that is the correct direction.

    "Class Distribution broken down by subclass when applicable (Active Characters)"

    So a Level 2 fighter is just a "Fighter" but a level 3 fighter would be called by subclass like "Eldritch Knight".

    However, I don't see the point of looking at this way. Like you said, multi-class characters would be counted twice unless you designate only characters with one class. That said having one for classes then breaking individual classes by subclass on different slides would be more precise. You could then say, Fighters are the most popular class and Champions are the most popular subclass in fighters. If you want to make that more comparable between classes you put a number under the percent. Then you could look at the number of Champions on the Fighter Class chart and compare that to the number of Rogue Thieves if you wanted to make that comparison. Also, you could under the Percent Total # / Non-Multiclass # / Multi-class Number for each listing under fighter and the individual sub classes. That then lets you say, "well yes the standard fighter is on a lot more characters than the champion but is clearly a 2 level dip since they are mostly multi-classes" because the data will be present.

    In the End I don't think trying to label one slide with all the classes and subclass is a good idea. Looking at your question, it seems to me you could put more useful information on 1 "Class Distribution(Active Characters) " and 12 "X class Distribution by subclass when applicable (Active Characters) " with Total # / Non-Multiclass # / Multi-class Number # under the name and percent.

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