D&D 5E Horde Breaker and Heavy Crossbow Loading Property Question

Sidmandoo · Feb 12, 2019

The basic question I have is: does the loading property on a heavy crossbow, prevent a player from utilizing the Horde Breaker ability of a ranger to make a second attack against another creature?

RAW it says, for Horde Breaker "Once on each of your turns when you make a weapon attack, you can make another attack with the same weapon against a different creature that is within 5 feet of the original target and within range of your weapon."

RAW for loading property it says "Because of the time required to load this weapon, you can fire only once piece of ammunition from it when you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make."

My take is that it does, but the Horde Breaker does not make mention of properties related to the weapon, it just says you make another attack.

Has big implications for one of the players in my group, as I think we have been running Horde Breaker wrong for like awhile. lol

5ekyu · Feb 12, 2019

Sidmandoo said:
The basic question I have is: does the loading property on a heavy crossbow, prevent a player from utilizing the Horde Breaker ability of a ranger to make a second attack against another creature?

RAW it says, for Horde Breaker "Once on each of your turns when you make a weapon attack, you can make another attack with the same weapon against a different creature that is within 5 feet of the original target and within range of your weapon."

RAW for loading property it says "Because of the time required to load this weapon, you can fire only once piece of ammunition from it when you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make."

My take is that it does, but the Horde Breaker does not make mention of properties related to the weapon, it just says you make another attack.

Has big implications for one of the players in my group, as I think we have been running Horde Breaker wrong for like awhile. lol

Yes it seems to block the feature although the crossbow expert feat can solve that i think.

Sacrosanct · Feb 12, 2019

It means that when you shoot a target with your heavy crossbow, you can then throw your crossbow at the other target within 5ft of the first.

In all seriousness, I would originally rule the loading property means it overrrides the horde breaker ability. However, if a player wanted to make a ranger with a heavy crossbow as their theme, I would totally allow horde breaker to overrule the loading property because a) I don't think it would break anything and b) I don't see many rangers specializing in archery using the heavy crossbow, so I would totally support a theme the player wants.

Yunru · Feb 12, 2019

Only one attack as part of an action, but Horde Breaker isn't part of an action, so loading doesn't apply.

Sidmandoo · Feb 12, 2019

Yunru said:
Only one attack as part of an action, but Horde Breaker isn't part of an action, so loading doesn't apply.

I see what you are getting at, but the Hoarde Breaker ability is an extension of an action, the attack action. In a way, its a variant of a multiattack.

Kurotowa · Feb 12, 2019

5ekyu said:
Yes it seems to block the feature although the crossbow expert feat can solve that i think.

This. The trade off with a Heavy Crossbow versus a Longbow is that the Crossbow has a one step larger damage die but can only shoot once per round. That trumps anything that allows multiple attacks on one turn, be it Horde Breaker or Dread Ambusher or plain old Extra Attack. But the Crossbow Expert feat exists specifically to lift that limitation for the PCs who really want to stick with one.

GothicEmperor · Feb 12, 2019

Kurotowa said:
This. The trade off with a Heavy Crossbow versus a Longbow is that the Crossbow has a one step larger damage die but can only shoot once per round.

Once per action or bonus action, not once per round. A War Cleric can use his War Priest ability to make a second crossbow attack as a bonus action in the same round, no feats required.

Yunru · Feb 12, 2019

Sidmandoo said:
I see what you are getting at, but the Hoarde Breaker ability is an extension of an action, the attack action. In a way, its a variant of a multiattack.

No it's not. In fact it's specifically worded such that it can trigger off of any action.

Sacrosanct · Feb 12, 2019

Yunru said:
No it's not. In fact it's specifically worded such that it can trigger off of any action.

What other action, on your turn, do you make a weapon attack other than the attack action?

Kurotowa · Feb 12, 2019

GothicEmperor said:
Once per action or bonus action, not once per round. A War Cleric can use his War Priest ability to make a second crossbow attack as a bonus action in the same round, no feats required.

You are, in fact, correct. Teach me to ever go off memory for a special rule I've only see other players interact with.