Who Playtested This Anyway? - Page 3
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by aramis erak View Post
    I disagree quite strongly with this. As do its thousands of fans.
    I'm not referring to opinion, mine or others as that is subjective and cannot be right nor wrong. But, simply how the market reacted to the product. That is unarguable (sanely) based on sales and it knocking D&D out of first place in RPG history. Remember, the market is ALWAYS right.
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  2. #22
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    If the market is always right, Twighlight is better than Song of Ice & Fire and way, way better than Dragonlance.

  3. #23
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    I think it can easily be stated that 4e didnĺt meet WoTC sales expectations or the D&D fans in general hence the scramble to redo it 2 years in as Bobble said as sales dropped, and pathfinder over took it as the lead game for a while. Any other would be a head in the sand or fans of the edition holding the defense torch.

    what I would be interested in knowing was after heinsloo and team designed 4e and the internal or WoTCĺs normal play test began back then, what the feedback was like from those testers.
    Last edited by EthanSental; Monday, 17th June, 2019 at 02:03 AM.
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  4. #24
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    Most RPG products still feel like they have barely been playtested at all.

    Scratch the surface and the framework falls apart, such as when you deliberately create a character with a large amount of XP.

    Why? Because far too few customers are discerning customers, who even find flaws, let alone care sufficiently to speak of them loudly enough that the company's bottom line is affected.

    Until that happens, there's little need to playtest more thoroughly.

    Also, most RPGs are used by very few people, a few thousand at the most.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by aramis erak View Post
    It plays well. Playtesting provided for a game that runs smoothly, provided you don't fight the system.
    But that's not enough. Even if it were perfect for its design intent (it wasn't, & still isn't) it failed miserably in giving the majority what they wanted.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccs View Post
    But that's not enough. Even if it were perfect for its design intent (it wasn't, & still isn't) it failed miserably in giving the majority what they wanted.
    Not what WotCs polls showed, actually- the vast majority of D&D fans had no particular exclusive love or hatred for any particular edition. But it doesn't take a majority to generate controversy, which is all you need to keep the mainstream away, and thus miss growth targets.

    5e pulled it off - its compromises disappointed plenty of fans, but didn't outrage any of them enough to want to destroy the line they formerly loved.
    Last edited by Tony Vargas; Monday, 17th June, 2019 at 04:59 AM.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobble View Post
    I'm not referring to opinion, mine or others as that is subjective and cannot be right nor wrong. But, simply how the market reacted to the product. That is unarguable (sanely) based on sales and it knocking D&D out of first place in RPG history. Remember, the market is ALWAYS right.
    I won't buy into that delusion.

    Also, 4E made a profit. A handy one at that. It just ran its course.

    Being number 2 in a field of 40K + ain't bad.

    Plus, it was essentially competing with itself.

    The OGL was the big problem for 4E - WOTC wanted to, but couldn't, kill it, and wasn't allowed to continue to use it (either by internal or external to the WOTC work unit of Hasbro executive decisions)...

    Pathfinder was announced almost the moment that it was announced 4E wasn't going to be open sourced.
    Last edited by aramis erak; Sunday, 16th June, 2019 at 10:08 PM.

  8. #28
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    Sorry, I can't help you confront reality aramis. Hire a good therapist.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnZapp View Post
    Why? Because far too few customers are discerning customers, who even find flaws, let alone care sufficiently to speak of them loudly enough that the company's bottom line is affected.
    You've been here since 03, you can't possibly have failed to notice the sheer volume & variety of second-guessing, grousing, complaints, optimization, analysis, and alternatives that have gotten bandenied about with every WotC ed, 5e not excepted, in spite of its conciliatory attitude and many compromises - and two years of wide-open public playtesting..

    ...not only has WotC listened to it's most discerning customers, listening has proven the worst possible move, comercially.

    The discerning fan base complained about out of control powergaming, LFQW, 5MWD, casters twanging crossbows, Static Combat, useless encounter guidelines, unsustainable advancement, 20-level builds, blatant rules exploits, structural Class imbalance so profound it could be broken down into 6 Class Tiers, non-core material, healer-dependence/WoCLW, Polymorph, Scry/Buff/Teleport, Rocket Tag, broken save DCs, out-of combat resolution that excluded most of the party...
    ...and greatsword doing 1/2 hp more average damage than greatax.

    So WotC rolled rev and fixed /all/ of that.

    And, it turned out, yes, some discerning fans were mildly impressed by the improbable accomplishment - but, mostly just pointed out that Skill Challenges were borked, da Math was off by 3 over 30 levels, Blade Cascade & Comanders Strike were poorly worded, and weren't there some races & classes missing - and again, that all got fixed inside a year, but the discerning fans continued to find fault and WotC to issue updates...

    .... most of which was drowned by the edition war, nearly killing the line, and forcing a re-eboot that put almost everything the discerning fans had complained about back the way it was.

    Playtesting, though served it's purpose: not in improving the game or spotting bugs, but in floating ideas, and seeing which - like DoaM - sparked genuine, edition-DEFCON-level outrage, so they could be renditioned.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Vargas View Post
    You've been here since 03,
    A very long reply, a very short answer:

    I was talking about RPGs in general, not any specific game in particular.

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