Do you want Greyhawk updated to 5e?

Do you want Greyhawk updated to 5e?

  • Yes! Greyhawk should be updated to the current edition.

    Votes: 92 56.4%
  • No! That sounds like a terrible idea.

    Votes: 40 24.5%
  • I refuse to answer polls that value my opinion.

    Votes: 7 4.3%
  • Other (will explain the comments why I can't answer yes or no to a yes or no question)

    Votes: 24 14.7%

  • Poll closed .
So what makes Greyhawk different than any of the settings I mentioned, and more importantly, why should I play in that setting over any other?

I like Greyhawk for a few reasons.

1. It's lower fantasy than Forgotten Realms. There's just less weird stuff there. Sure, you've got elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings and humans (and the half-humans), but that's it. No dragonborn. No tieflings. No devas. No genasi. No thri-kreen or aarakocra. No drow as a playable race. You're playing the least fantastic and least exotic of the races, so things that are aberrant or bizarre feel more fantastic just because they're bizarre! It's, "Oh, it's a troll? Well, between the bird man monk, the dragon man that breathes acid, and the demon thing with wings and a tail you've been travelling with for several weeks, that doesn't seem so strange," versus, "It's a troll! You've never seen such a vile and repulsive creature!"

2. The mortals are mortals and the gods are gods. I don't know if it's just me, but it sure seems like the gods in FR die far more often than the mortal protagonists ever do. I want the gods to be both powerful, but also significantly more distant than the gods in FR. The well-known NPCs are basically just the magic-users from Gygax's campaigns, and they're either your friends, completely unavailable, deities, or also dead. There's no Elminster wandering around, no Drizzt and company, etc. In Greyhawk, the high level NPCs are so rare that you may never meet one. The gods are busy or don't care or can't help. Mordenkainen, whatever he's doing, certainly isn't available to help the PCs. If the party gets into trouble in Greyhawk, there's nobody to seek out and ask for help except for the rulers who might be able to levy an army of peasants. By and large, you're on your own and if you lose then everybody within a few thousand miles is gonna die.

3. Lower populations, less civilization, vast unclaimed wilderness. The population of FR, Eberron, and even DragonLance is fairly high relative to Greyhawk. In Greyhawk, if you travel from the city of Greyhawk to Verbobonc, two of the largest cities in the campaign world, you're going to spend a significant amount of time in essentially untamed wilderness between the two cities. Most nations only have limited contact with each other, and pretty much everything feels like they're slightly larger than a city-state. You go outside the sparse region of cities, and you're in essentially vast unclaimed wilderness for months at a time. You can't really get lost in the wilderness of FR because if you pick a direction, chances are there's a city that way a few days away. In Greyhawk, if you get turned around, you're just gone. Being an adventurer in Greyhawk is dangerous business. The wilderness is full of dangers, known and unknown, and even if you've got a map you've no real idea what's out there. It's like striking out west from St Louis in the 1850s. You better be prepared because you're on your own. Being an adventurer in FR feels like going to Yellowstone National Park in the 1980s. No cell phones, but still pretty safe.

4. Division between the "good" races and kingdoms. In FR, there's established diplomatic lines everywhere and the regions are mostly at peace with each other. Not in Greyhawk. In Greyhawk, you're lucky if there's not a war every five years over the border between human kingdoms. Elves are remote and aloof and nearly xenophobic and hide in their forests. Dwarves are greedy and uninterested in the surface world. Gnomes also don't really associate with anyone, except the dwarves that they often have defense agreements with and humans to trade with. Halflings live near humans, but they're halflings. FR is a prosperous campaign world dominated by large, powerful, and often good-aligned nations with a few sparse and holdout regions of evil. Greyhawk is a world recovering from devastation, multiple cultural migrations and displacements, filled with fallen empires, lost kingdoms, forgotten thrones, abandoned cities, and vacant temples. Greyhawk isn't grim-and-gritty (before From the Ashes, at least). Greyhawk is in the middle of it's own Dark Ages.

5. Player ignorance means it really is a blank slate. So many players have read FR books or played FR games. They know Baldur's Gate, Waterdeep, Icewind Dale, etc. They know the Zhentarim and the Red Wizards of Thay. They know about the Sundering, the Spellplague, and every other major event in the past 100 years of game time. Nobody knows Greyhawk, however. They'll know the City of Greyhawk. They'll know the famous magic-users just from the spell names. They might know Iuz. Nobody knows about the Twin Cataclysms. Nobody knows about the Invoked Devastation and the Rain of Colorless Fire. Nobody knows about the Sueloise, Bakluni, Oeridians, and Flannae.
 

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No, I'm correct. Check out the official WotC product page: Ghosts of Saltmarsh

It is set in the Azure Sea, which is in which setting again?

To be fair it will be, like the U1-U3, basically setting neutral and provide suggestions about how to use it in other settings. But it is as much of a Greyhawk adventure as the originals where (or at least so I've been told in this very thread).

I'm sorry, but setting it on the Azure Sea seems virtually meaningless when they also explicitly stripped the campaign-specific details from Saltmarsh. I mean, it's just a sea. If anything is completely interchangeable between campaign settings, the large bodies of water have to be pretty near the top of the list. They could search and replace "Azure" with "Shining," "Trackless," or "Inner" and that would be the extent of the changes they'd have to make to move it to FR.
 

dave2008

Legend
I'm sorry, but setting it on the Azure Sea seems virtually meaningless when they also explicitly stripped the campaign-specific details from Saltmarsh. I mean, it's just a sea. If anything is completely interchangeable between campaign settings, the large bodies of water have to be pretty near the top of the list. They could search and replace "Azure" with "Shining," "Trackless," or "Inner" and that would be the extent of the changes they'd have to make to move it to FR.

Have you checked what makes the original series set in Greyhawk? 1 sentence (again if you believe what you read on the internet). My point is that it is no more less set in Greyhawk than the original.
 

Volund

Explorer
It's encouraging to see so many opinions about Greyhawk. It's the setting I use because it's the one I started with way back and my current group enjoys the nostalgia of playing classic TSR modules with 5e rules. My selfish reason for wanting WotC to update Greyhawk is that, as I've mentioned elsewhere, I foolishly threw all of my AD&D stuff about 10 years ago so I would really like to replace that Greyhawk folio and map. My reason for not wanting an update is that the geography, history, and pantheon are widely available through online resources and that's all I need to run my campaign. I don't need it to be any more specific than what it was in the early 1980's.
 

I would LOVE to have all the "Main" setting reset and relaunched as 1 book starter sets...but modified to modern sensibilities. I even like the idea of a forgotten realms reset to grey box days...kinda like how marvel did 'ultimate spiderman' back a few years ago. So I would love "Ultimate Greyhawk"
 

Raith5

Adventurer
I would like to see Greyhawk updated and explained for a new audience. I played it with 1e back in the day so I dont need a simple reprint - I dont see the point of that as it is already out there. So I would like to see someone sympathetic to previous iterations of Greyhawk include some of the now core aspects of D&D. Maybe Tieflings could in the Great Kingdom and Dragonborn are from the West. It doesnt need to be super detailed, it just needs to explain in rough terms the politics and culture of the world and the adventure opportunities therein.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
I don't particularly care about Greyhawk, but in general I dislike edition updates to fantasy settings because they force changes to serve the edition instead os serving the setting.

It doesn't have to be but it always ends up like that. The horror of 4e adaptation of Faerun was for me the ultimate blow.

On a related matter I also dislike metaplots, but at least those are motivated by narrative.

When I fall in love with a fantasy setting I simply don't want it to be changed (admittedly, I have often falling in love with a version of a setting that wasn't the first, but it was the first I've ever known). If it's a great settings I don't grow tired of it, but if I do then I'd rather change to another setting than ask to change YHAT setting. I don't think it's a good idea to change the rules of checkers or bridge or backgammon because some people (me included) are bored with them, it is disrespectful towards those who really love them.

To be more clear, I'd say YES to simply update existing material (monsters, spells, magic items) to the latest iteration of the rules so that the SAME setting can be played with the current rules edition, but I'd say NO to add narrative stuff (esp. races) that's never been part of the setting just because they are in the current PHB or MM.
 

I'm sorry, but setting it on the Azure Sea seems virtually meaningless when they also explicitly stripped the campaign-specific details from Saltmarsh. I mean, it's just a sea. If anything is completely interchangeable between campaign settings, the large bodies of water have to be pretty near the top of the list. They could search and replace "Azure" with "Shining," "Trackless," or "Inner" and that would be the extent of the changes they'd have to make to move it to FR.

Stripping exactly what campaign specific-details from Saltmarsh? Reading the text of U1, the campaign-specific details amount precisely to:

"On the WORLD OF GREYHAWK map, Saltmarsh is placed in the southernmost part of Keoland, at the western edge of hex U4/123" on page 3.
The appearance of two books by Tenser and one by Nystul on page 7.

And that is it. Tenser and Nystul could have copies of their books on many D&D worlds, given the widespread knowledge of their spells. And the fact that the town is in Keoland is completely irrelevant to the story, as absolutely nothing Keoland-specific is ever brought up in the module. It could be any country, anywhere, as far as the module is concerned.

Using your logic, "Keoland" is just the name of a country. If anything is completely interchangeable between campaign settings, the country names have to be pretty near the top of the list. They could search and replace "Keoland" with "Amn", "Tethyr", or "Cormyr" and that would be the extent of the changes they'd have to make to move it to FR.


(Just to be clear, I'm happy to see that they are acknowledging Saltmarsh's canon location within Greyhawk in this release; I'm just pointing out that the original adventure had very little in the way of actual material linking it to the setting).
 
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vecna00

Speculation Specialist Wizard
I'm not a huge fan of Greyhawk, so I don't need an update. But I'm pretty sure we'll get one in some way and some point.
 

City State was '76. (A pseudo-campaign setting because TSR wasn't releasing one; remember, Judge's Guild got the license because Gygax didn't think people wanted pre-made modules)

Last printing was 1983.

Greyhawk folio was 1980. But the boxed set everyone thinks about was 1983.

The two didn't really overlap. Probably an artifact of memory.

I happened to use City State prior to Greyhawk, but not after.

I owned the folio version (which I never found a use for). So yes, there was overlap. I envied a friend's copy of City State.
 

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