Do orcs in gaming display parallels to colonialist propaganda?

Bedrockgames · Mar 9, 2019

pemerton said:
On the other hand, I think it should be totally possible to play with casting in a Conan movie and yet fully capture the spirit of REH. It is important thematically that Conan be a barbarian, but his being white is - in my view at least - thematically extraneous (though obviously of great personal importance to REH), provided that the rest of the casting and broader framing properly incorporated Conan into the "civilisation" that was being presented.

One thought on the whole civilization thing in Conan. An aspect of the story I've always liked is that Conan has very little fondness for it and we tend to see it through his eyes. A lot of his internal dialogue is bafflement at the way of life in cities (I may be over-remembering here, as I can't honestly say how many times I've seen this kind of internal dialogue, it just sticks out in my mind).

Aldarc · Mar 9, 2019

Bedrockgames said:
I hear what people are saying, but I think it isn't always obvious how media and stories impact our world. And I think as well intentioned as this stuff is, you really do run the risk of making wholesomeness prime, and quality second. We can juggle many things at once. But if wholesomeness becomes the benchmark for quality....I think it leads to less interesting stories. Dune is a good case in point. I am not sure how you could change it to take out the elements deemed problematic and have it remain intact. Part of what makes Dune work is the very tropes called into question.

This, much like a lot of your concerns, seems to lean far too heavily on presenting a hypothetical slippery slope argument as reasonable. But it doesn't seem morally reasonable when you consider that you seem more worried about preserving what you find more "interesting" rather than rectifying what actual people find personally harmful and denigrating (and equating this latter issue with a degrading quality of the works).

pemerton · Mar 9, 2019

I re-read Dune recently. To me it seems to draw rather heavily on Lawrence of Arabia. Its treatment of West/Cenrral Asian people as a hardy but in some senses simple people awaiting a European prophet to lead them to their destined victory didn't strike me as especially original. But I'm not familiar with the range of opinions about the book held by West and Central Asian readers.

Umbran · Mar 9, 2019

Aldarc said:
This, much like a lot of your concerns, seems to lean far too heavily on presenting a hypothetical slippery slope argument as reasonable.

Yeah. I am not sure it comes off as reasonable to go from, "having your work laden with racist or sexist stereotypes is a flaw," translates to, "only goodthink allowed".

But it doesn't seem morally reasonable when you consider that you seem more worried about preserving what you find more "interesting" rather than rectifying what actual people find personally harmful and denigrating (and equating this latter issue with a degrading quality of the works).

As has been mentioned upthread, it seems to me that heavily leaning on stereotypes should, perforce, make a work *less* interesting. I dunno about the rest of you, but my creative writing teachers would have called such use, "a crutch." They are literary boilerplate, calling on the audience to fill in the details, rather than thinking up and providing some for yourself. And that's okay in many instances, but we can probably do without those that are strongly linked to race, for example.

Bedrockgames · Mar 9, 2019

Aldarc said:
This, much like a lot of your concerns, seems to lean far too heavily on presenting a hypothetical slippery slope argument as reasonable. But it doesn't seem morally reasonable when you consider that you seem more worried about preserving what you find more "interesting" rather than rectifying what actual people find personally harmful and denigrating (and equating this latter issue with a degrading quality of the works).

I think this frames it unfairly. You can worry about both. But I just disagree that the intense microscope approach to finding problems in art actually helps reduce harm. And I do think an overemphasis on wholesomeness can lead to bland art. I am not saying kind art degrades quality. I am saying the parameters we are setting appears to be affecting quality and peoples’ ability to express themselves fully. I understand why you are framing it this way. But I think you are barking up the wrong tree. And again, I want to emphasize,you can characterize this as a lack of concern for certain people on my part if you want but that absolutely isn’t what is going on here. Like I said earlier I think this kind of stuff often makes it harder to resolve some of the inequities we are discussing. I also think it approaches infantalization. I don’t fault you for disagreeing. We’ve simply reached different conclusions here. I can tell you are motivated by good intentions. I do wish you could see my good intentions as well.

generic · Mar 9, 2019

Bedrockgames said:
I think this frames it unfairly. You can worry about both. But I just disagree that the intense microscope approach to finding problems in art actually helps reduce harm. And I do think an overemphasis on wholesomeness can lead to bland art. I am not saying kind art degrades quality. I am saying the parameters we are setting appears to be affecting quality and peoples’ ability to express themselves fully. I understand why you are framing it this way. But I think you are barking up the wrong tree. And again, I want to emphasize,you can characterize this as a lack of concern for certain people on my part if you want but that absolutely isn’t what is going on here. Like I said earlier I think this kind of stuff often makes it harder to resolve some of the inequities we are discussing. I also think it approaches infantalization. I don’t fault you for disagreeing. We’ve simply reached different conclusions here. I can tell you are motivated by good intentions. I do wish you could see my good intentions as well.

I didn't want to get involved in this conversation originally, but it has been fairly stimulating and surprisingly civil, so I have decided to join.

I agree that the censorship of art can reduce the quality of expression, but I think that you have misunderstood the exact purpose of [MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION]'s posts. Aldarc is stating that, in media, it is denigrating and harmful to recreate steryotypes merely because they are "appealing".

Please correct me [MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION] is I am incorrect.

Best regards,

Aebir-Toril.

dragoner · Mar 9, 2019

Bedrockgames said:
I am saying the parameters we are setting appears to be affecting quality and peoples’ ability to express themselves fully.

...

I do wish you could see my good intentions as well.

There has always been a line as to what is acceptable, always, and it has always moved. Standing beyond that accepted line, and saying "this should be acceptable" causes by your own actions people to question your intentions.

generic · Mar 9, 2019

dragoner said:
There has always been a line as to what is acceptable, always, and it has always moved. Standing beyond that accepted line, and saying "this should be acceptable" causes by your own actions people to question your intentions.

Yup.

Bedrockgames · Mar 9, 2019

dragoner said:
There has always been a line as to what is acceptable, always, and it has always moved. Standing beyond that accepted line, and saying "this should be acceptable" causes by your own actions people to question your intentions.

So is the line always correctly set? It looks to me like the line is shifting. It hasn't shifted fully yet and we are having a discussion about it. We are arguing about whether evil orcs are a problem or not, and whether they are tainted by colonialism. I think that is much more hazy than some of the other standards out there. And I don't believe this standard is going to achieve what its advocates hope it to achieve. You can freely question my intentions. My intentions are good. And I think if someone starts a thread asking if Orcs are a colonialist trope, people should be able to give their honest opinion that it is or isn't, without being viewed with suspicion. Some of really just disagree on this stuff, even if share other basic assumptions about things like racial equality. I feel like that is really being lost in this discussion, because I am becoming a stand in for something much bigger. My critique is fairly moderate I think.

darkbard · Mar 9, 2019

Bedrockgames said:
So is the line always correctly set? It looks to me like the line is shifting. It hasn't shifted fully yet and we are having a discussion about it. We are arguing about whether evil orcs are a problem or not, and whether they are tainted by colonialism. I think that is much more hazy than some of the other standards out there. And I don't believe this standard is going to achieve what its advocates hope it to achieve. You can freely question my intentions. My intentions are good. And I think if someone starts a thread asking if Orcs are a colonialist trope, people should be able to give their honest opinion that it is or isn't, without being viewed with suspicion. Some of really just disagree on this stuff, even if share other basic assumptions about things like racial equality. I feel like that is really being lost in this discussion, because I am becoming a stand in for something much bigger. My critique is fairly moderate I think.

Martin Luther King, Jr., "Letter from Birmingham City Jail":

First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."