D&D 5E Monsters struggling to hit players? Common?

mortwatcher · Mar 7, 2019

Honestly, this seems like an issue on the low levels, because AC is pretty frontloaded. It is not rare to have 1st level characters with shield being in the 16-18 AC range, but after this initial surge, it doesn't scale extremely well. So in the first tier, yes you will have issues hitting with the low bonuses, but around the level 10, you are hitting with 4-6 on your dice again.

jasper · Mar 7, 2019

metal man bad, us orcs dog pile the mage.
It depends on the dice ( those son of beeeeeppppp!), tactics, and + to hit. Monsters can go around most of the time. Fall back and range. Run away. Generally the game is set up for the party to win. Which is okay. Don't let them do 5 minute days. Think tactically. etc.

Oofta · Mar 7, 2019

Another tactic I've used occasionally is to have low level cannon fodder that do nothing but help the more CR appropriate monsters hit. So the goblin causes the fighter to stumble, or throws dirt in their eyes hampering vision just long enough to distract him and give their ally advantage to hit.

Nebulous · Mar 7, 2019

aco175 said:
Numbers affect how often monsters hit. 5 goblins are not much of a threat for 5th level PCs, but make that number 15 and that is a tough fight.

Also, if the monsters can gain advantage on attacks it helps. Flanking optional rules are not for everyone so you can look at other methods. They can be blessed like the PCs for the additional 1d4 to attacks. You can also look at playing without feats, but that is not for everyone either.

With respect, not even 15 goblins is a high threat for a party of 5th level characters. A single fireball spell can instantly kill however many goblins you can pack into a 40 foot diameter. Now, if you have 8 goblins surrounding your wizard and hacking away, that's another matter. But in general, they're going to die so fast that it probably won't be an issue.

Anyway, in regards to the OP, yes, PC Armor Class is generally much better than any monster. And many monsters at higher levels pack WAY less of a punch than you would expect them to. The numbers needs massaging the higher you get, and I use PC Feats in my campaign, so I add equivalent Monster Feats to maintain balance.

Nebulous · Mar 7, 2019

iserith said:
The general argument against the optional flanking rules is that it's just too easy to get advantage.

Yes, the DMG suggestion of Advantage on Flanking is poor. While it does fit into the simplicity of 5e, it would grant a ridiculous amount of Advantage that would work against the PCs as much as for them. I have recently introduced a simple "+1 damage" if flanking enemies land a blow. It's minor damage but it does give some incentive to the tactic. And getting swarmed by enemies on all sides makes it considerably more scary.

Dausuul · Mar 7, 2019

I feel like monster attack bonuses, at least in the original MM, are maybe 2 points lower than they should be.

I once had an entire party with AC jacked to the gills; only one of the four had an AC below 20, and this was in the middle of tier 2. It took a fair bit of work to keep combats from being excruciatingly dull. On the one hand, you don't want people to feel like they invested in AC for nothing, but on the other hand, a combat where the monsters just miss endlessly is boring for them as well as me. And if I just focused fire on the one guy* whose AC started with "1," that got to feeling unfair pretty fast.

I ended up using "regular" monsters (with standard attack bonuses) as window dressing to make the players feel like they got their money's worth out of their AC, and then including a few spellcasters or bosses with boosted attack bonuses to keep the pressure on.

[size=-2]*He wasn't a squishy caster; he was a monk who was less optimized than the rest of the group. The two casters in the party, a warlock and a cleric, were both in the AC 20+ crowd.[/size]

CubicsRube · Mar 7, 2019

I feel annoyed at times when people go straight to blaming the system without fully looking at the strategies within the book.

Why aren't the enemies using help for advantage? Or grappling? Or tripping and ganging up on an individual member? Maybe the enemies should have spellcasters also? Anything that's game for the party should worm for the enemies also.

I don't think that enough people play monsters intelligently enough. And that's not really a fault of the system.

Nebulous · Mar 7, 2019

CubicsRube said:
I feel annoyed at times when people go straight to blaming the system without fully looking at the strategies within the book.

Why aren't the enemies using help for advantage? Or grappling? Or tripping and ganging up on an individual member? Maybe the enemies should have spellcasters also? Anything that's game for the party should worm for the enemies also.

I don't think that enough people play monsters intelligently enough. And that's not really a fault of the system.

As someone who has DMed since 1st edition, and 5e since it came out, I would say I am qualified to disagree with you here. I DO run monsters intelligently and try Helping and grappling and spellcasters and whatever, and I can unequivocally say that in MY campaigns, per the OP concerns, it can still be difficult for monsters to hit those upper PC Armor Classes, especially at higher levels. And really, mob grappling every fight isn't fun, only sparingly. And preferably at the edge of a chasm or pit.

I really do think my favorite levels of D&D are 1st to 6th. I almost wish I could run a REALLY SLOW campaign where PCs stay 1st level for a month, and reaching 2nd level would be like "Holy S*#T we made it!" If you ever get so high that you are flying and casting lightning bolts and making two attacks per round, you're a very special son of a bitch.

iserith · Mar 7, 2019

Nebulous said:
As someone who has DMed since 1st edition, and 5e since it came out, I would say I am qualified to disagree with you here. I DO run monsters intelligently and try Helping and grappling and spellcasters and whatever, and I can unequivocally say that in MY campaigns, per the OP concerns, it can still be difficult for monsters to hit those upper PC Armor Classes, especially at higher levels. And really, mob grappling every fight isn't fun, only sparingly. And preferably at the edge of a chasm or pit.

I think the underlying question is "Is this actually a problem to begin with?" To that I would say, "No," but that's because I've adjusted my expectations to be in line with the design conceits that have been discussed upthread. I expect the monsters to miss most of the time and so I'm not disappointed when that's exactly what happens.

I would also add that this game works best when it's one of attrition. If the DM is presenting a couple of encounters per adventuring day (which is a pretty common way people prep scenarios these days), then things get thrown out of whack with high AC characters who will end that adventuring day with a lot of their resources intact. In a game like mine, most of the PCs have high AC (two warforged fighters and a cleric with heavy armor, for example), but they get put through the ringer every adventuring day and are depleted by the end of it due to the occasional big hit from a monster and some effects with saves.

Dausuul · Mar 7, 2019

CubicsRube said:
Why aren't the enemies using help for advantage?

Because one monster attacking with advantage is less effective than two monsters attacking without. This tactic is only useful in a "minions and boss" scenario.

CubicsRube said:
Or grappling?

What do you accomplish by grappling the tanky fighter-type? Making them stay next to you until you're dead? That's probably what they were planning to do anyway.

CubicsRube said:
Or tripping and ganging up on an individual member?

I'm going to assume that by "trip," you mean "shove."

This can work, but you need a very large group. Assuming that you have about a 50% chance to succeed on a shove, you're burning 2 attacks each round to grant advantage to the others. You need at least 5 monsters mobbing the target for that to have any payoff at all, and you need 7+ monsters for the payoff to be significant.

CubicsRube said:
Maybe the enemies should have spellcasters also?

Sometimes they do. Often they don't, because spellcasters are not all that common. You can't just walk down to the corner store and buy one. Besides, PCs focus fire on spellcasters like nobody's business. They can fight intelligently, too.

D&D 5E Monsters struggling to hit players? Common?

mortwatcher

Explorer

jasper

Rotten DM

Oofta

Legend

Nebulous

Legend

Nebulous

Legend

Dausuul

Legend

CubicsRube

Hero

Nebulous

Legend

iserith

Magic Wordsmith

Dausuul

Legend

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