Sneak Peek At Ghosts of Saltmarsh Maps

Paul Farquhar said:

I think the only way to make everyone happy is to include both black and white and colour versions of each map.

Click to expand...

One artsy and more purely functional would be great.

Interesting. Like the looks of those maps.

Rob Twohy said:

Ugh. The fact that people AREN'T upset by this is UPSETTING! I will say I'm kind of bias tho... I do all my playing on the Fantasy Grounds VTT and having black and white maps just seems wrong. But I buy the books ($50) and I also buy the FG modules ($25) and the DnD Beyond version, so I'm in for $100 each time they release a book. I only really need the Fantasy Grounds version but I'm a freak and have to have it all, I just wish the maps were color.

Click to expand...

I get some of your point - I looked at FG and DnDBeyond and both wanted me to pay an additional $30ish for PHB content (even though I had a hard copy PHB). I know there is work in conversions, but one hopes it isn't the same cost as all of the development and creativity in the original product. If they wanted $10, I would not have blinked. As it is, they got 0$ from me because I cannot afford to commit $100 every time a new book comes up (and that's $100 US, about $130 CAD).

I've used MapTool and I had licenses for Grip iPC and another VTT I paid for (forget the name now - but I bought 4 licenses). One of the problems I've encountered is they (not sure if FG is the same) only support some games or some content of those games and the ability to add the full fledged support for new content is strictly something the original developers can provide and they are either way slow or just don't. So buying the paper books (or a PDF thereof) still means you've got content the VTTs don't support.

I write code for a living. I know several ways one could make much more open data models and interfaces/APIs to let users add content to the software almost as easily as they could to the PnP game. But none of the developers for VTTs that want hefty fees tend to bother. And I am not able to afford FG monthly subscription any more than I can justify a monthly subscription to MS Office when an 8 year old version I own works for 100% of my needs.

I have no issues with the game books including colour maps. I never use maps out of books directly because they aren't miniature sized. They should, by now, be releasing B&W and colour digital maps (and other game aids from products) when you buy the digital product. (And if you do it smart, with the right tools, you can probably easily reskin a floorplan from fancy to simple B&W)

Ideally:
- Print or POD version
- PDF version with digital versions of all reference materials (B&W or easily printable and colourful for VTTs)
- VTT packages with tokens and full VTT integration data

If WotC was smart, they'd partner with VTT vendors so that you could buy these parts individually but if you bought more than one of the three categories, a discount would be applied (the author's input has already been remunerated).

I like VTTs for distance gaming and I like B&W or easily printable for tabletop gaming. The books to me could be broken into an easily printable reference booklet and the larger 'arty' hardcover or softcover.

One driver is artists like to be arty. And module designers want to try out layout and module design experiments. Creative people want to be creative. That instinct often overwhelms the understanding that end users need to be able to use the product.

Tom B1 said:

I get some of your point - I looked at FG and DnDBeyond and both wanted me to pay an additional $30ish for PHB content (even though I had a hard copy PHB). I know there is work in conversions, but one hopes it isn't the same cost as all of the development and creativity in the original product. If they wanted $10, I would not have blinked. As it is, they got 0$ from me because I cannot afford to commit $100 every time a new book comes up (and that's $100 US, about $130 CAD).

I've used MapTool and I had licenses for Grip iPC and another VTT I paid for (forget the name now - but I bought 4 licenses). One of the problems I've encountered is they (not sure if FG is the same) only support some games or some content of those games and the ability to add the full fledged support for new content is strictly something the original developers can provide and they are either way slow or just don't. So buying the paper books (or a PDF thereof) still means you've got content the VTTs don't support.

I write code for a living. I know several ways one could make much more open data models and interfaces/APIs to let users add content to the software almost as easily as they could to the PnP game. But none of the developers for VTTs that want hefty fees tend to bother. And I am not able to afford FG monthly subscription any more than I can justify a monthly subscription to MS Office when an 8 year old version I own works for 100% of my needs.

I have no issues with the game books including colour maps. I never use maps out of books directly because they aren't miniature sized. They should, by now, be releasing B&W and colour digital maps (and other game aids from products) when you buy the digital product. (And if you do it smart, with the right tools, you can probably easily reskin a floorplan from fancy to simple B&W)

Ideally:
- Print or POD version
- PDF version with digital versions of all reference materials (B&W or easily printable and colourful for VTTs)
- VTT packages with tokens and full VTT integration data

If WotC was smart, they'd partner with VTT vendors so that you could buy these parts individually but if you bought more than one of the three categories, a discount would be applied (the author's input has already been remunerated).

I like VTTs for distance gaming and I like B&W or easily printable for tabletop gaming. The books to me could be broken into an easily printable reference booklet and the larger 'arty' hardcover or softcover.

One driver is artists like to be arty. And module designers want to try out layout and module design experiments. Creative people want to be creative. That instinct often overwhelms the understanding that end users need to be able to use the product.

Click to expand...

Most people don't realize that it takes about 400-600 hours of work to convert the average WotC book into Fantasy Grounds format. Also, there is usually EXTRA stuff, like automated table and encounter makers, etc. Like fo rexample the Dungeon Master's Guide has an Item forge where you can combine (magic) items to make new items.

Also, SmiteWorks (makers of FG) charges only about half the cover price of the book for the VTT version (which is a GREAT DEAL) and most of that money goes to WotC for the license anyway.

Rob Twohy said:

Most people don't realize that it takes about 400-600 hours of work to convert the average WotC book into Fantasy Grounds format. Also, there is usually EXTRA stuff, like automated table and encounter makers, etc. Like fo rexample the Dungeon Master's Guide has an Item forge where you can combine (magic) items to make new items.

Also, SmiteWorks (makers of FG) charges only about half the cover price of the book for the VTT version (which is a GREAT DEAL) and most of that money goes to WotC for the license anyway.

Click to expand...

There's part of the issue: If they went about things differently, the amount of labour to integrate new things (especially those primarily relying on existing rules albeit in different combinations or with different flavour) would not be so lengthy. I have no doubt it could take that long for a VTT upgrade to support significant changes now. There are, however, things WotC could do in their development process that would allow them to distribute electronic artifacts (like databases of character construction, gear, magic items, spells, etc) simply as a fairly easy export. That same approach would vastly speed up creation of reference books by scripting. (I've done this on a military project - reference documentation needed a template then it just pulled all the particular reference data out into tables and sections based on export rules).

D&D Beyond likely also pays a good chunk of the $30 for the PHB for licensing - their integration work is probably less than FG though.

At the end of the day, it does not matter to me as a consumer (and not because I don't care, simply because of available budget) why a platform or its content cost significant chunks of $$$, it only matters that they do cost significant amounts. If I had $130 CAD to throw at each new book ($60-70 for the book, the rest for digital stuff, maybe even $150 CAD if I wanted a PDF of the book), I would not be that averse to paying it, but I don't. By having the price point they do, they price me and I'm sure others out of the market.

When I started playing this game, a hardcover was $15 CAD (DMG $18) and modules were $8-10 CAD. Now hardcovers are $60-70 and modules are released as adventure paths for at least $50 CAD. That's a five fold increase in about 40 years. Real wage growth hasn't matched that.

Frankly, I settle for cheaper production values (no fancy glossy pages, no super nice art, simple B&W maps and simple layout) a) because it is cleaner and often more usable at the table than the stuff in the expensive hardcovers and b) because I can't justify spending so much on the hardcovers. The creative content can be just as useful to me (I've met duds in both formats and great work in both formats).

Ultimately, the best value to me is having a lot of different module offerings as each new campaign has a new setting and only some modules work in it. $100+ per module path would leave me with thousands of dollars sitting on the shelf, vs. a few hundred in the cheaper production values.

I mostly want to steal segments of a module, good ideas, or use a particular single module that fits my games' geography or themes... whole paths are rarely followed.

What WotC produces now, other than reference books, is of limited use to me. The older D&D modules were more useful as are some 3rd party publishers' output. Also note that even with the reference books, I still depend on DTRPG and DMsGuild contributors to produce useful versions of the reference material due to the hardcovers being too arty and the data needs reformatting for utility at the table.

YMMV, but I'm not alone in wanting good ideas and relocatable modules with more modest production values. I do respect that others want other things, but I think WotC is letting a pool of money it could be capturing now go to other companies.

Rob Twohy said:

Ugh. The fact that people AREN'T upset by this is UPSETTING! I will say I'm kind of bias tho... I do all my playing on the Fantasy Grounds VTT and having black and white maps just seems wrong. But I buy the books ($50) and I also buy the FG modules ($25) and the DnD Beyond version, so I'm in for $100 each time they release a book. I only really need the Fantasy Grounds version but I'm a freak and have to have it all, I just wish the maps were color.

Click to expand...

Are you [MENTION=6928534]Rob Twohy[/MENTION] of DM's Guild? I've bought some of your stuff. Just let me say that I, for one, appreciate the great map artwork.

Bolongo said:

Huh. I mean, they even have the artifacts typical of scanning an old copy (some dirt, weak lines, and the like).

But if you say so.

That's really disappointing, I agree.

Click to expand...

That's the way Dyson makes his maps.

Honestly, I really do not like his maps. They aren't any different than what my lame butt can draw on graph paper. I prefer the Schley maps from previous adventures. Though, being completely honest, I prefer even more how Paizo does their maps overall. Of course, I typically do my D&D playing online.

Funnily enough though, if you take the Dyson maps, and then colorize them, they look pretty darn good. I know the colorized versions of the Dragon Heist maps actually pop in a VTT.

It's mostly just the plain black and white. It's a bit too minimalist on a virtual tabletop. OTOH, if I was printing these to use at the table, they'd be fantastic and far better than something like the Schley maps which would destroy my poor printer cartridge.

Hussar said:

Funnily enough though, if you take the Dyson maps, and then colorize them, they look pretty darn good. I know the colorized versions of the Dragon Heist maps actually pop in a VTT.

It's mostly just the plain black and white. It's a bit too minimalist on a virtual tabletop. OTOH, if I was printing these to use at the table, they'd be fantastic and far better than something like the Schley maps which would destroy my poor printer cartridge.

Click to expand...

I agree. For handouts, the Dyson maps are perfect. Especially if you don't want to take the time to copy them by hand. Much easier on the printer cartridges compared to the full color Schley maps. I am ignorant on what you mean by "colorized" Dyson map, though.

Printing is the thing. Coloured ink is expensive, and, unless you invest in expensive paper too, produces less than satisfactory results. Black and white maps can be printed/photocopied cheaply with bottom-of-the-range equipment (even better than the original blue and white maps).