Removing Hit Points from the Game

The mechanic that most bothers me with D&D ingeneral is the use of hit points. yes, this is well trod ground for internet debates, but I am interested in actually finding a solution to the "hit point problem."

Now, it is not hit points per se that bothers me, but how they increase significantly as the PCs gain levels. It is primarily through hit points that characters become superheroes in D&D, able to shrug off attacks that very recently would have been worrisome if not downright fatal. And note that this isn't about realism or trying to simulate anything. I simply don't like how the change happens, and the rate at which it happens: the PCs head off to the Sunless Citadel and have to carefully pick their way through the wilderness lest they run afoul of bandits, for example, but three days later they are 3rd level and the way back is barely a concern because those CR 1/8 bandits are no longer much of a threat. That change in threat is mostly about damage capacity.

One solution is to effectively star PCs off at more hit points and then greatly reduce the number they increase over time. This means threats early remain threats later and PCs increase primarily in versatility and skill rather than toughness. But figuring out where to put that starting value is highly dependent on where you expect the campaign to end. If you are running a 1-5 like Phandelver or DragonHeist, you can give everyone max 3rd level hit points and then allow them just their con modifier per level and you should be good. But if the end is in the teens, balance is going to get really wonky at low levels.

Another solution is to use something like the Mutants and Masterminds damage save, which seems to work well enough for super hero d20 games, but might require a lot more initial design changes to make balanced and workable.

Have you eliminated hit point inflation from your 5E game? How did you do it? Did it work?

It seems to me that the issue is how you perceive HP. You state that you want PCs to "...increase primarily in versatility and skill..." But that is a bid part of what HP represents (IMO). HP increase because the PC are more skilled at avoiding real damage. This is more obvious in 5e because AC doesn't increase nearly as much. Now personally, I do have some issues with "meat points" so we have 2 pools. HP, figured as normal and BHP (bloodied hit points) that is pretty static and basically doesn't change. If your BHP reach 0, your dead.

Reynard said:

Have you eliminated hit point inflation from your 5E game? How did you do it? Did it work?

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I used this crazy system where characters got full HP for a little while, then +1/+2 HP for each additional level.
But it was a little too Advanced for us.

In a prior edition I went to a wound system. We used HPs as is, but they did not represent your wounds. Instead, you rolled percentage dice. If the percentage dice roll exceeded he percentage of hps you had remaining, you took a wound. The type of attack determined the type of wound, but they were on cards, and the deck ou drew from was based upon the type of damage and the extent to which your percentage roll exceeded hp percentage.

Example: Bob has 25 hps. He is hit for 5 hps with a slashing weapon. Bob now has 20 hps which is 80% of his max hps. He rolls percentage dice and gets 60... no wound. Then he takes 15 fire damage. He now has 5 hps, which is 20% of hs max hps. He rolls percentage dice and gets 63. That is 43 above 20. The Yellow deck is drawn from when a roll is more than 30% but less than 60%, so the player pulls a wound from the yellow fire deck. It indicates that the fire has burned the eyes - the PC is blind until they make a DC15 con save at the end of their turn. If they fail 3 saves before making one, they are blind until a restoration spell is used.

You could do this with the idea of increasing the starting hps and you'd likely get a feel closer to what you seek.

I start with constitution/health attribute X 10 at first level, then add the attribute every level after that. A character with con/health 10 would start with 100 hp and at level 10 have 190.

With weapons skills which lower the critical hit range which cause 2x-5x damage, plus possible permanent injury or instant death combat is deadly and quick.

We also have an additional attribute quickness which increases the number of melee attacks and missile rate of fire. This starts at first level. Quickness/5 any fractions if rolled on a d10 allow another attack. Quickness 15 15/5 3 melee attacks and 3 missiles added to the rate of fire. Quickness 16 16/5 3 with .2 remaining gives 3 melee attacks but if rolling a 2 or less on d10 gives a fourth attack.

Hit point is the best of all silly solutions to emulate heroic skill.
Otherwise you have to allow a small chance to have a high level character to be slain one shot by any low threat encounter.

In the game I’m playing in, the DM capped our hit dice at 10. Some from 11th level on, we’ve just been getting our Con mod (plus, in my PC’s case, +1 hp/lvl for being a hill dwarf). He says he’s done the same for monsters and NPCs. Seems to be working OK.

Hit points only increase if you gain levels. If you start everyone at 5th level. and keep them there forever, it's not a problem.

Let the adventures be done to save the world, to gather magic items, and to gain feats and epic boons, without ever gaining a level, without ever learning any new ranks of spells. Just like adventuring past level 20, except starting sooner.

Reynard said:

Now, it is not hit points per se that bothers me, but how they increase significantly as the PCs gain levels. It is primarily through hit points that characters become superheroes in D&D, able to shrug off attacks that very recently would have been worrisome if not downright fatal. And note that this isn't about realism or trying to simulate anything. I simply don't like how the change happens, and the rate at which it happens: the PCs head off to the Sunless Citadel and have to carefully pick their way through the wilderness lest they run afoul of bandits, for example, but three days later they are 3rd level and the way back is barely a concern because those CR 1/8 bandits are no longer much of a threat. That change in threat is mostly about damage capacity.

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5e with bounded accuracy took out a lot of the other parts of survivability, replacing it all with HP growth. Both for PCs and monsters.

Regardless of the validity of the point, changing this goes against one of the intentional design decisions. It can change, but will have ripple effects. That's not a discouragement - just realize that that change will requiring layers of tweaking, and hopefully leads you more to the game you want to play.

Seramus said:

I used this crazy system where characters got full HP for a little while, then +1/+2 HP for each additional level.
But it was a little too Advanced for us.

Click to expand...

You know, that is crazy! We used a similar system a long time ago, but a character could even get +3 HP per level! Small world, huh?

Reynard said:

The mechanic that most bothers me with D&D ingeneral is the use of hit points. yes, this is well trod ground for internet debates, but I am interested in actually finding a solution to the "hit point problem."

Now, it is not hit points per se that bothers me, but how they increase significantly as the PCs gain levels. It is primarily through hit points that characters become superheroes in D&D, able to shrug off attacks that very recently would have been worrisome if not downright fatal. And note that this isn't about realism or trying to simulate anything. I simply don't like how the change happens, and the rate at which it happens: the PCs head off to the Sunless Citadel and have to carefully pick their way through the wilderness lest they run afoul of bandits, for example, but three days later they are 3rd level and the way back is barely a concern because those CR 1/8 bandits are no longer much of a threat. That change in threat is mostly about damage capacity.

One solution is to effectively star PCs off at more hit points and then greatly reduce the number they increase over time. This means threats early remain threats later and PCs increase primarily in versatility and skill rather than toughness. But figuring out where to put that starting value is highly dependent on where you expect the campaign to end. If you are running a 1-5 like Phandelver or DragonHeist, you can give everyone max 3rd level hit points and then allow them just their con modifier per level and you should be good. But if the end is in the teens, balance is going to get really wonky at low levels.

Another solution is to use something like the Mutants and Masterminds damage save, which seems to work well enough for super hero d20 games, but might require a lot more initial design changes to make balanced and workable.

Have you eliminated hit point inflation from your 5E game? How did you do it? Did it work?

Click to expand...

Seriously though, our DM experimented with a system based on Vitality/Wounds from d20 Star Wars, with some changes however. The problem arose that everything you encounter, all spells, etc. has to be revamped to fit the new system. In the end, we just decided as much as we liked it, it wasn't worth the hassle.

Our DM had to change some encounters for us when he ran the Keep on the Borderlands. It was okay until level 3, but by the time we finished at Level 5 the BBEG would have been a cakewalk if he hadn't beefed up the encounter to make it a challenge. It was similar with the wilderness encounters later on, too, so I completely understand your frustration.

I don't know how it might affect balance at higher levels, but one thing to consider is lower the HD type one place, but grant a +2 bonus at level 1.

d12 becomes d10, but still 12 at level 1
d10 becomes d8, but still 10 at level 1
d8 becomes d6, but still 8 at level 1
d6 becomes d4, but still 6 at level 1

Also, if the players want to take the average, I would round down. Unless otherwise noted, everything is supposed to round down anyway. This way, the average HP is 2 less per level after first.

With these ideas, look at a Fighter with Con 14 to level 20. Normally, the Fighter gains 6 + Con mod, or 8 per level in this case. Using a d8, with avg 4.5 rounded down to 4, the character would gain 6 hp per level. By 20th level, that's 38 fewer HP.

1: 12 stays as 12
2: 20 turns to 18 (12 + 4 (avg d8, round down) + 2
3: 28 turns to 24 (18 + 6)
4: 36 turns to 30
5: 44 turns to 36
etc.
20: 164 turns to 126.

Honestly, you might even want to remove the additional +2 at level one, but survival can be so hard at lower levels I would advise against it.

Other options are to grant Con bonus only once, or maybe have it decline one point per level, so a +2 Con bonus would add 2 at level one, 1 and level 2, and 0 after that. Characters with a -1 would only suffer that at first level, and it would improve to 0 afterwards.

I don't know, there are all sorts of ways to reduce HP without crippling the players. Another option would be to make critical hits more deadly by making them open-ended, or just increase the multiplier. That way, even lower CR creatures can still be feared, because a critical hit could still hurt a LOT.

Just some thoughts before bed. Hope it helps.