If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth? - Page 129
  1. #1281
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    Quote Originally Posted by pemerton View Post
    Either way, I couldn't imagine it playing out like @Elfcrusher's example.
    That makes two of us!
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  2. #1282
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5ekyu View Post
    There are some GMs who (maybe poor form or maybe by design) dont explicitly mark the end of their stage in the play loop with a formal declaration every scene.

    <snip>

    Sometimes it just a more rookie GM thing but sometimes it's more a setting atmosphere and sense of impending threat that *formally acknowledging the beginning and end stage of each segment in the hitherto agreed upon by all parties play loop* fits like letting the air out of a wet bslloon.
    Quote Originally Posted by DM Dave1 View Post
    Why would a DM "by design" not signal to the players that they need to do something? What does that even mean?
    The comment was about not using a formal declaration/acknowledgement. And the reasong given was to preserve atmosphere.

    Another reason - which applies at my table - is informality among friends, and going along with the back-and-forth of play. If I describe a situation and a player says "OK, I'm doing this" I'm not going to disregard the action declaration just because that player didn't wait for me to ask "What do you do?"
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  3. #1283
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    Regarding the wall that's just a wall ...

    Quote Originally Posted by pemerton View Post
    To me, this would seem a good reason not to call for a check at all, because nothing is at stake.. Just narrate the climbing of the unremarable wall and keep moving until something more significant comes up.
    Who said there was no consequence t failure? Just because it's a minor background issue, doesn't mean it's not important. Don't get me wrong, a lot of times the wall is just climbed. But if there's time pressure or falling from the wall could cause injury or other setback then I think a check should be called for. Maybe the quickest way would be to climb but there's also a longer way around or a more dangerous route, so on and so forth.

    I'm just saying some obstacles are simple. Sometimes a chest is trapped because it makes sense for it to be trapped and there is a level of risk, that doesn't mean I'm going to make a big deal out of it.

    But it also goes back to who is overcoming the obstacle; the PC or the player? Some obstacles will be player challenges by their nature, I simply think some things should be PC challenges.

  4. #1284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oofta View Post
    Regarding the wall that's just a wall ...



    Who said there was no consequence t failure? Just because it's a minor background issue, doesn't mean it's not important. Don't get me wrong, a lot of times the wall is just climbed. But if there's time pressure or falling from the wall could cause injury or other setback then I think a check should be called for. Maybe the quickest way would be to climb but there's also a longer way around or a more dangerous route, so on and so forth.

    I'm just saying some obstacles are simple. Sometimes a chest is trapped because it makes sense for it to be trapped and there is a level of risk, that doesn't mean I'm going to make a big deal out of it.

    But it also goes back to who is overcoming the obstacle; the PC or the player? Some obstacles will be player challenges by their nature, I simply think some things should be PC challenges.
    I have a problem understanding this. How do you challenge a PC? It canít think, it canít act, it canít do anything other than what the player says it does. Itís like a User Interface but it isnít itself the User. Itís always the player behind the avatar that has to think and act.

    What am I missing?
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  5. #1285
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlaquin View Post
    I donít think itís so much an assumption that the players will need that level of structure, but rather that D&D 5e aims to create a play experience that said structure facilitates.

    <snip>

    Sounds like 4e to me. And thatís not a bad thing. I still think 4e is the best-designed edition of D&D, from a mechanical standpoint.
    What I'm not sure about is what is distinctive about the mechanics of 5e vs 4e that make one or the other approach suitable. That is, if someone ran 4e as you run 5e, what would break down? Or if someone ran 5e in the 4e style, what would break down?

    I'm not disputing that there are differences between the systems - the ones that are most obvious to me are (i) the lack of skill challenges in 5e and (ii) the asymmetric resource recovery in 5e - but I'm not sure how these differences bear upon the topic of this thread.

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    Well, @Oofta, the fact that no consequence was ever posited points to the notion that there was no consequence. And, at that point I think we all agree, regardless of approach, you just tell the players they climb over the wall and move on.

    Same goes for pretty much any sort of obstacle where time will overcome it. I have to admit, I have no idea why 5e removed the "Take 20" rules. I suppose, at the end of the day, they don't really need them - you're not supposed to roll anyway, so, just get on with it. I always did think, though, that Take 20 was a nice mechanic in the game.

    Too much power to the players maybe?

    I would like to say, that as I read this last page of the thread, I find myself nodding with pretty much everyone. Well done you folks.
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  7. #1287
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    Quote Originally Posted by pemerton View Post
    What I'm not sure about is what is distinctive about the mechanics of 5e vs 4e that make one or the other approach suitable.
    Play it and get back to us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oofta View Post
    Just because it's a minor background issue, doesn't mean it's not important.
    I'm not meaning to be a smart-arse, but to me that looks almost self-contradictory: how can it be minor yet important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oofta View Post
    Sometimes a chest is trapped because it makes sense for it to be trapped and there is a level of risk, that doesn't mean I'm going to make a big deal out of it.
    But calling for a check makes it a big deal - or at least that's how it seems to me.

    I think part of the explanation for our different conceptions here might be very different approaches to establishing the adventure/scenario.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bawylie View Post
    I have a problem understanding this. How do you challenge a PC? It canít think, it canít act, it canít do anything other than what the player says it does. Itís like a User Interface but it isnít itself the User. Itís always the player behind the avatar that has to think and act.

    What am I missing?
    I think challenge the PC means something like establish a ficitonal situation in which the PC faces a challenge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iserith View Post
    Play it and get back to us.
    There was a reason I asked @Charlaquin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pemerton View Post
    There was a reason I asked @Charlaquin.
    I think my suggestion will be more informative for you and for us. Traveler and Burning Wheel can only take you so far, or us, where these discussions are concerned.
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