True Strike: Yes, lets beat the dead horse

Gadget · Apr 9, 2019

I missed this post the first time around. I definitely think True Strike needs to me modified, but I'm not sure that extra damage is necessary. Personally, I've changed the target to self (you don't have to pick a target when you cast the spell, and there's really no need for that lame 30' range) and removed the verbiage about it being the first attack on your next turn (so battle magic and quicken meta-magic can be effectively applied).

I thought the action cost and Concentration requirement would keep it from being spammed by certain 'builds' that would try to take advantage of the looser restrictions, but now I'm not so sure if the concentration requirement shouldn't be removed as well. 'Dippers' that are trying to take advantage would probably not care about Concentration anyway. I think the most abusable case would be spending an action to set up a high level spell attack, or to make sure that arrow of slaying strikes home in the dragon (shades of Smaug), and I'm not sure I see anything wrong with those scenarios.

MiraMels · Apr 10, 2019

True strike is fine. It's just not a cantrip meant for use with basic weapon attacks or cantrips.

It's a cantrip for use with spell attack rolls that you are spending spell slots on, if you need to be extra careful and not waste spell slots.

Is it situational? Sure! So is mage hand.

Gadget · Apr 10, 2019

MiraMels said:
True strike is fine. It's just not a cantrip meant for use with basic weapon attacks or cantrips.

It's a cantrip for use with spell attack rolls that you are spending spell slots on, if you need to be extra careful and not waste spell slots.

Is it situational? Sure! So is mage hand.

No, its really not. This so far beyond situational that it is laughable. Let's say you have this cool 'spell slot' spell you really need to get off, and many of the other ways to get advantage are not available to you (a big if, that). You are going to spend a round's actions to set up you spell for next round. But wait, your target needs to be chosen ahead of time, and within 30ft of you and, you need to maintain your concentration on the spell until you cast your 'big spell' next round. And that 'big spell' better not be a concentration spell either, because that won't work.

Mage Hand, on the other hand, is very much not situational, or it is situational in that it is useful in a large number of situations, unlike this Cantrip.

Leatherhead · Apr 11, 2019

cbwjm said:
I'd probably go all the way and make it follow the scag cantrips and have an attack as part of the spell, remove the bonus damage equal to your spellcasting modifier and just grant advantage on your attack (this is a big enough bonus I think that it doesn't need that extra damage) and then add the force damage at the usual cantrip levels as you've already noted.

I would do similar.
Except I would keep the casting stat bonus to your damage roll and replace advantage with "You also add your spellcasting modifier to your attack roll." I would then go on to use D6s instead of d8s. That way casters would have a serviceable weapon attack, if they wanted.

Bitbrain · Apr 11, 2019

*scratches head*

personally, I've always thought that True Strike doesn't need any changes, as it works fairly well when combined with a generous DM, and a sorcerer with Haste and the Quickened spell metamagic option..

I once cast haste on an enemy vampire, then cast a quickened true strike, causing me to lose concentration on haste and prevent the vampire from taking any actions that entire round.

Hawk Diesel · Apr 11, 2019

Bitbrain said:
*scratches head*

personally, I've always thought that True Strike doesn't need any changes, as it works fairly well when combined with a generous DM, and a sorcerer with Haste and the Quickened spell metamagic option..

I once cast haste on an enemy vampire, then cast a quickened true strike, causing me to lose concentration on haste and prevent the vampire from taking any actions that entire round.

My main problem with True Strike is exactly what you describe. It is very clear and even intuitive as to how and when to use something like Mage Hand or Ray of Frost. But in order to find ways to make True Strike work, you need a ridiculous amount of system mastery, a specific build, a lenient DM, or some combination thereof. Wasn't 5e built specifically to reduce the bloat of 3.5 and the need for system mastery required for play?

smbakeresq · Apr 11, 2019

If it was just a bonus action like Smite spells then it would be ok.

5ekyu · Apr 11, 2019

Bitbrain said:
*scratches head*

personally, I've always thought that True Strike doesn't need any changes, as it works fairly well when combined with a generous DM, and a sorcerer with Haste and the Quickened spell metamagic option..

I once cast haste on an enemy vampire, then cast a quickened true strike, causing me to lose concentration on haste and prevent the vampire from taking any actions that entire round.

Ok, so, I scratch my head at this.

I suppose it depends on what generosity you ecpect.

Haste and True Strike are both concentration. So, a given caster wont have access to both at same time, generally.

Sure, True Strike and a quickened spell sounds good, or the reverse, but, True Strike advantage doesnt kick in until your next turn. So, unless last turn's True strike carried over, then that's not much at all. (You cannot cast True Strike then Quicken say Guiding Bolt and use that advantage attack all on one turn.

Even if you could, are you better off than adding a cantrip attack to non-advantaged spell?

Bitbrain · Apr 11, 2019

5ekyu said:
I suppose it depends on what generosity you ecpect.

Generosity from the DM for allowing me to role-play during combat the impression of my old Sorcerer turning against the rest of the other PCs, only to reveal himself as having been loyal to them the whole time.

If I were to try this tactic at my dad's games, he would veto it outright as being too "metagaming", even if it would be totally consistent with the personality of my PC at that specific table.

MiraMels · Apr 11, 2019

Gadget said:
No, its really not. This so far beyond situational that it is laughable. Let's say you have this cool 'spell slot' spell you really need to get off, and many of the other ways to get advantage are not available to you (a big if, that). You are going to spend a round's actions to set up you spell for next round. But wait, your target needs to be chosen ahead of time, and within 30ft of you and, you need to maintain your concentration on the spell until you cast your 'big spell' next round. And that 'big spell' better not be a concentration spell either, because that won't work.

Mage Hand, on the other hand, is very much not situational, or it is situational in that it is useful in a large number of situations, unlike this Cantrip.

Granted, I could easily also gain advantage by asking an ally within 5 feet of the target to take the Help action, but that would mean the fighter is giving up an entire round of attacks.

Why couldn't true strike be used with a concentration spell? I don't understand why you think that it couldn't.

True Strike: Yes, lets beat the dead horse

Gadget

Adventurer

MiraMels

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Gadget

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Leatherhead

Possibly a Idiot.

Bitbrain

Lost in Dark Sun

Hawk Diesel

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smbakeresq

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5ekyu

Hero

Bitbrain

Lost in Dark Sun

MiraMels

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