New D&D Adventure Reveal On 17th May at 'The Descent'

If it's worth anything, and I'm not sure it is at this point, one of those outstretched hands is decked out in jewelry; possibly a reference to Mammon? Also that perfectly symmetrical crown of light above the angel's[?] head certainly reads as "halo" to me.

I don't see anything inherently wrong with a fun bit of speculation, even if it ends up being inaccurate because of intentional subterfuge. Yes it's all just ultimately meaningless hype, but hype is hype for a reason. People love reveals. Especially the younger audiences that WotC has been actively trying to recruit; I mean have you seen the way kids go nuts over those gachapon mystery egg toy things?

Gradine said:

I mean have you seen the way kids go nuts over those gachapon mystery egg toy things?

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They go nuts over video game lockboxes, too, and governments the world over are investigating those marketing practices.

Forgive me; I'm developing these thoughts as I write them, so I may not be crystal clear. It's a difficult problem for me to put my finger on.

I am deeply, deeply gratified that what Wizards is doing is working to recruit new blood, and it is good to see the game marching toward being mainstream. It's better than some video game, and always has been. It deserves extra attention in today's play-focused culture. But yes, the way WotC has pivoted to sell the sizzle and not the steak, and the way that the community is complicit in that, does make me uncomfortable.

There was a time when these books were hotly anticipated (admittedly, by a much smaller audience) based on their content, and not the celebrity endorsements, Twitch streams, and $300 Los Angeles weekend galas. I see what this pivot has done to AAA video games, and no, I don't agree that meaningless hype is harmless.

I love the D&D5 system -- I've bought the core books three times in hardback because I'm afraid of wearing them out. But I've bought only a fraction of the supporting library, and everything I have bought elicits no more emotion than a satisfied nod. By contrast, I dislike D&D4's system and never run it, but I have a huge collection of D&D4 sourcebooks, and devour their lore. My AD&D2 library has a place of honor in my house, as do some few D&D3 books I chose to retain after the launch of Pathfinder.

But five years in, having run at least one game in every week of that time, I do not have what I would call a D&D5 library. I cannot shake the feeling that something is very wrong.

DMZ2112 said:

They go nuts over video game lockboxes, too, and governments the world over are investigating those marketing practices.

Forgive me; I'm developing these thoughts as I write them, so I may not be crystal clear. It's a difficult problem for me to put my finger on.

I am deeply, deeply gratified that what Wizards is doing is working to recruit new blood, and it is good to see the game marching toward being mainstream. It's better than some video game, and always has been. It deserves extra attention in today's play-focused culture. But yes, the way WotC has pivoted to sell the sizzle and not the steak, and the way that the community is complicit in that, does make me uncomfortable.

There was a time when these books were hotly anticipated (admittedly, by a much smaller audience) based on their content, and not the celebrity endorsements, Twitch streams, and $300 Los Angeles weekend galas. I see what this pivot has done to AAA video games, and no, I don't agree that meaningless hype is harmless.

I love the D&D5 system -- I've bought the core books three times in hardback because I'm afraid of wearing them out. But I've bought only a fraction of the supporting library, and everything I have bought elicits no more emotion than a satisfied nod. By contrast, I dislike D&D4's system and never run it, but I have a huge collection of D&D4 sourcebooks, and devour their lore. My AD&D2 library has a place of honor in my house, as do some few D&D3 books I chose to retain after the launch of Pathfinder.

But five years in, having run at least one game in every week of that time, I do not have what I would call a D&D5 library. I cannot shake the feeling that something is very wrong.

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Kids these days, with their hip-hop music, the Twitching, and newfangled D&D lore.

DMZ2112 said:

They go nuts over video game lockboxes, too, and governments the world over are investigating those marketing practices.

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Don't get me wrong; I'm no fan of exploiting people's enjoyment of surprises/reveals to essentially hook them into gambling. That is shady as hell. That said, that enjoyment itself is actually quite legitimate, and a J.J. Abrams-esque "mystery box"-style marketing campaign that plays into that is significantly more harmless than turning kids into gambling addicts.

I am deeply, deeply gratified that what Wizards is doing is working to recruit new blood, and it is good to see the game marching toward being mainstream. It's better than some video game, and always has been. It deserves extra attention in today's play-focused culture. But yes, the way WotC has pivoted to sell the sizzle and not the steak, and the way that the community is complicit in that, does make me uncomfortable.

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You might be speaking for yourself here when you say that WotC is not delivering the steak as well. What makes me uncomfortable is how some folks have been translating "I am personally disappointed in these offerings that others seem to really enjoy" into "the community is complicit."

There was a time when these books were hotly anticipated (admittedly, by a much smaller audience) based on their content, and not the celebrity endorsements, Twitch streams, and $300 Los Angeles weekend galas. I see what this pivot has done to AAA video games, and no, I don't agree that meaningless hype is harmless.

Click to expand...

Much of this strikes me as "old man yells at cloud"-style complaints. The Twitch streams and YouTube celebrities are part-in-parcel with the D&D audience skewing much younger as it astronomically grows in size. Welcome to the new D&D fanbase.

I love the D&D5 system -- I've bought the core books three times in hardback because I'm afraid of wearing them out. But I've bought only a fraction of the supporting library, and everything I have bought elicits no more emotion than a satisfied nod. By contrast, I dislike D&D4's system and never run it, but I have a huge collection of D&D4 sourcebooks, and devour their lore. My AD&D2 library has a place of honor in my house, as do some few D&D3 books I chose to retain after the launch of Pathfinder.

But five years in, having run at least one game in every week of that time, I do not have what I would call a D&D5 library. I cannot shake the feeling that something is very wrong.

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So all of this has been code for YARPC (Yet Another Release Pace Complaint)?

For what it's worth, this Millennial has personally anticipated and enjoyed the ancillary 5E products for their content. The fun media stuff is just, you know, fun.

Gradine said:

You might be speaking for yourself here when you say that WotC is not delivering the steak as well.

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I didn't say that. I said they're not selling the steak. I can see how I might have confused the point, though, and I'm sorry if I was unclear. I also never used the word 'disappointed.' I believe I said these products evoke 'satisfied nods,' which is not a negative and was not intended to be one. Everything I've seen for D&D5 is high quality. But what I also see is a change in the nature of D&D content since the launch of D&D5 -- perhaps a greater aversion to risk? -- and I don't think I'm alone in that. Lots of folks have noted the strong pivot to FR in the face of certain APs seemingly being written for other D&D settings, for instance. I think WotC has been vocal about this risk averse behavior -- the edition itself was crowdsourced. They have been harping on about the importance of "not dividing the fanbase" since before launch.

And the community is always complicit in hype. That's not a conspiracy theory -- either there is complicity, or there is no hype.

Much of this strikes me as "old man yells at cloud"-style complaints. The Twitch streams and YouTube celebrities are part-in-parcel with the D&D audience skewing much younger as it astronomically grows in size. Welcome to the new D&D fanbase.

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Ignoring your attempt to marginalize my point by painting me as crazy, let me be clear that I'm not above telling kids to get off my lawn, but I don't believe that's what this is. I watch a lot of YouTube, and I don't mean home-improvement how-to videos. Celebrity culture is not new. What makes a celebrity and how we interact with them are different now than these things were 20, 30 years ago, but the culture was no less a thing then. Its inclusion in official D&D marketing is new. You could argue that celebrity involvement is a natural consequence of the community getting larger, but embracing it as strategy is still a choice.

So all of this has been code for YARPC (Yet Another Release Pace Complaint)?

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Is that a real acronym? Wild. Thanks for the second attempt to marginalize my point without addressing it. I love D&D5's release pace. I am just not inspired by most of what they are producing. I recognize the high quality of a product like Tomb of Annihilation, and the time required to produce it, but I have no need for a module set in Chult that trades on nostalgia for recycled Greyhawk IP. And that is fine -- not everyone needs to see themselves in every book, and my point is not that Wizards is producing crap. My point is that I worry that it does not matter what Wizards produces right now, in much the same way that it does not matter how high quality a Marvel or Star Wars film is. I think their audience buys the product no matter what, and criticism is quickly forgotten under the wheels of the marketing juggernaut for the next release -- just like at a AAA video game publisher.

This is about consumer advocacy more than it is about youth, and it's not about growth so much as it is about momentum. It's about a phenomenon I've been observing in film and video games for some time infiltrating this hobby as well, and I don't think cocking an eyebrow and squinting hard at what is happening is necessarily unwarranted.

They're already teasing a post-Descent announcement. I started a new thread about it, but this link should take you right to the spot it's mentioned towards the end of the last Spoilers & Swag: https://youtu.be/-yatYFcetOk?t=3526

vecna00 said:

They're already teasing a post-Descent announcement. I started a new thread about it, but this link should take you right to the spot it's mentioned towards the end of the last Spoilers & Swag: https://youtu.be/-yatYFcetOk?t=3526

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I'm going with an announcement about the setting book they've mentioned latter this year (guessing Dragonlance, Eberron or Planescape) or movie stuff.

DMZ2112 said:

They go nuts over video game lockboxes, too, and governments the world over are investigating those marketing practices.

Forgive me; I'm developing these thoughts as I write them, so I may not be crystal clear. It's a difficult problem for me to put my finger on.

I am deeply, deeply gratified that what Wizards is doing is working to recruit new blood, and it is good to see the game marching toward being mainstream. It's better than some video game, and always has been. It deserves extra attention in today's play-focused culture. But yes, the way WotC has pivoted to sell the sizzle and not the steak, and the way that the community is complicit in that, does make me uncomfortable.

There was a time when these books were hotly anticipated (admittedly, by a much smaller audience) based on their content, and not the celebrity endorsements, Twitch streams, and $300 Los Angeles weekend galas. I see what this pivot has done to AAA video games, and no, I don't agree that meaningless hype is harmless.

I love the D&D5 system -- I've bought the core books three times in hardback because I'm afraid of wearing them out. But I've bought only a fraction of the supporting library, and everything I have bought elicits no more emotion than a satisfied nod. By contrast, I dislike D&D4's system and never run it, but I have a huge collection of D&D4 sourcebooks, and devour their lore. My AD&D2 library has a place of honor in my house, as do some few D&D3 books I chose to retain after the launch of Pathfinder.

But five years in, having run at least one game in every week of that time, I do not have what I would call a D&D5 library. I cannot shake the feeling that something is very wrong.

Click to expand...

What do you consider the steak?

I wonder that too because I find 5e Adventures, for the most part, to be better than 80%+ of the past adventures, story-wise (a lot of them are not all that easy to run, but they have generally great plots, IMO.)

Aside from maybe not liking FR (not a huge fan myself, more neutral) what is NOT "steak" about them?