Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi argument

Morrus · Apr 12, 2019

This ended up being a thread about how Zaardnar hates The Last Jedi, so I've edited the title and started a new one.

Kramodlog · Apr 12, 2019

Star Wars: Forget The Last Jedi Ever Happened.

Imaculata · Apr 13, 2019

I've got to say, the title of this movie surprised me. I don't know quite what to make of this trailer. It will be hard to undo the damage of the Last Jedi, but involving the emperor might be a good move. They've got to have a replacement big villain after The Last Jedi so unceremoniously dispatched Snoke.

MarkB · Apr 13, 2019

I really hope they're not backtracking from The Last Jedi and making Rey a Skywalker descendant. Let the character stand on her own merits. not just because of some shoehorned-in heritage.

doctorbadwolf · Apr 13, 2019

MarkB said:
I really hope they're not backtracking from The Last Jedi and making Rey a Skywalker descendant. Let the character stand on her own merits. not just because of some shoehorned-in heritage.

This. If they cave to the people that hated TLJ and undo it’s legacy, I’m out. Anyone can be the hero. That’s the point of the last movie. If they reverse that, then this whole trilogy has been pointless BS.

Mustrum_Ridcully · Apr 13, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
This. If they cave to the people that hated TLJ and undo it’s legacy, I’m out. Anyone can be the hero. That’s the point of the last movie. If they reverse that, then this whole trilogy has been pointless BS.

When was it ever that not anyone could become a hero in Star Wars? Han has no special connection to previous heroes. Obi Wan was just some random Jedi, not the heir to a long blood line of Jedi. (Because in the prequels, there are no blood lines of Jedi, the Jedi are against marriage and romantic relationships for Jed.)

Heck, if you just look at the original Star Wars movie, Luke is just some farmboy from a third-class world. The whole "son of Skywalker" thing and the "Anakin Skywalker a force virgin birth" was invented later. It's hardly a defining characteristic.

If they want to make the whole "anyone can be a hero" theme stronger, what they should have done is have a story about someone that wasn't born force sensitive and learns to master the force anyway. Because so far we only have people handed force powers by fate, no one worked to have them. And that is truly limits, it basically tells you: "Hey, if you weren't born special, then there is nothing you can do." (Well, at least not with the force. Obviously Han became a hero in the original trilogy without being force sensitive.)

Zardnaar · Apr 14, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
This. If they cave to the people that hated TLJ and undo it’s legacy, I’m out. Anyone can be the hero. That’s the point of the last movie. If they reverse that, then this whole trilogy has been pointless BS.

They lost money on Solo and took a 700 million dunking from TFA to TLJ. Rogue One overperformed expctaitions, TLJ underperformed (they didnt expect it to make TFA money but 700 million down), and Solo was a bomb.

Like it or not the movies are about the Skywalkers, at least the 1st 6. Rey more or less has to be one or be killed off unless you render the entire plotline moot.

If you want new heroes that are not Skywalkers, they should have made a different movies with TFA. Even casuals I think would have had some reasonable expectations after the end of RoTJ- Luke reestablishes the Jedi, Han and Leia live happily ever after things like that. There is subverting expectations and then there blowing up the world/pissing your fans off.

They also did a piss poor worldbuilding, a few things male a bit more sense if you read the novels etc but they need explainations in the movies not books and comics, and those explainations also need to be logical/good. For example apparently Rey downloaded Kylos training, but this was not in the movies.

Sure it explains it but the explaination is still crap because.

1. Why bother training younglings in previous movies when they can just force meld and share information.

2. Yodas lines about the dark side being quick and easy. Nope its a lot quicker just being Rey (who may or may not be a Skywalker).

Note this lame explanation was not even in the movies.

The movies don't need to make sense using RL logic but they should adhere to in universe logic. See Hans statements in ANH about plotting hyperspace routes (that Rey just does), or internal logic of the movies (TFA Poe pilots because Finn can't., a few hours/days later Finn flies to Canto Bright).

Its why TLJ is hated/kind of regarded as one of the worst SW movies. The prequels were a god idea executed badly, Disney is no idea executed poorly. To some extent you have to give in to fan expectations/entertain them or they won't be your fans for much longer. Its fairly simple across franchises (D&D 4E, New Coke etc). Its the hardcore fans who will pay to see your movies 6 times over and buy the merchandise, the casuals will go see anything with the Star Wars name on it (or at least did until Solo). It was also the hardcore fans that resurrected Star Wars in 1991 with Heir to the Empire.

doctorbadwolf · Apr 14, 2019

[MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION] feel free to start more Star Wars threads, but I’m not interested in arguing with diatribes about how terrible you think TLJ is.

Most polls and twitter threads and such I’ve seen show more people putting LTJ in their top 3 than at the bottom and the only metric by which it “underperformed” is “compared to TFA”. By every other possible metric it hit it out of the park.

And no, they don’t have to give in to fans. Fans don’t own franchises.

doctorbadwolf · Apr 14, 2019

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
When was it ever that not anyone could become a hero in Star Wars? Han has no special connection to previous heroes. Obi Wan was just some random Jedi, not the heir to a long blood line of Jedi. (Because in the prequels, there are no blood lines of Jedi, the Jedi are against marriage and romantic relationships for Jed.)

Heck, if you just look at the original Star Wars movie, Luke is just some farmboy from a third-class world. The whole "son of Skywalker" thing and the "Anakin Skywalker a force virgin birth" was invented later. It's hardly a defining characteristic.

If they want to make the whole "anyone can be a hero" theme stronger, what they should have done is have a story about someone that wasn't born force sensitive and learns to master the force anyway. Because so far we only have people handed force powers by fate, no one worked to have them. And that is truly limits, it basically tells you: "Hey, if you weren't born special, then there is nothing you can do." (Well, at least not with the force. Obviously Han became a hero in the original trilogy without being force sensitive.)

Luke is the hero of the OT.

Zardnaar · Apr 14, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
[MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION] feel free to start more Star Wars threads, but I’m not interested in arguing with diatribes about how terrible you think TLJ is.

Most polls and twitter threads and such I’ve seen show more people putting LTJ in their top 3 than at the bottom and the only metric by which it “underperformed” is “compared to TFA”. By every other possible metric it hit it out of the park.

And no, they don’t have to give in to fans. Fans don’t own franchises.

Well they seem to be fixing things TLJ messed up. Some role for Palpatine, fixing the Skywalker saber, tying IX to the Skywalker's, Kylo fixing his mask etc. 44% user rating on 200 000 reviews is alot to fix lol.

Fans don't own franchises but they don't have to support them either.

There are literally hundreds of million reasons why they need to fix Star Wars.