Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi argument - Page 11
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  1. #101
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    Honestly, I think when it comes to the films only, very little is codified to the extent that many seem to think. Most of it is left pretty vague. We see examples of all kinds of things, but I don't know if we need or should accept these examples as being applicable in all instances. I mean, @Zardnaar says to look at what the movies show us....and I did exactly that in my breakdown above, and I came away with a very different conclusion than he does.

    And all that really means is that there's no one correct interpretation. You can mix and match different examples from the films and draw just about any conclusion you'd like. I think the only objective conclusion that we can draw is that we aren't given enough information to accurately state that the Force always works this way or that way, and there are never any exceptions.

    I do think that all the extended universe stuff is a big stumbling block for many people. All the old comics and novels and video games. They want all that stuff to "matter", and the fact that it "doesn't matter" is irksome. So they tend to be more resistant to the new material by default.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowkey13 View Post
    .....


    Are people really debating whether or not the amount of rocks a person moved is indicative of their power?

    As opposed to being a complete and total element of "writers making stuff up as needed."

    We all know that the Force isn't real, right? Right?

    You know, before I really get into any more discussion about whether Rey or Luke's use of the force was more "realistic," or whether it totally made sense for the Rebel Alliance to entrust some rando farmer who has never flown a space ship with one of their few operational X-Wings and a super-important mission that determined the fate of the galaxy for REASONS .... there's something I wanted to say.

    Having seen all of these debates over the years, and I've spoken to many of you in person, and some of you have thought about these issues of how realistic the Force is... y'know... for hundreds or thousands of hours of your lives, I'd just like to say... GET A LIFE, will you people? I mean, for crying out loud, it's just a movie! I mean, look at you, look at the discussions you are having! You've turned an enjoyable little trilogy, that most of us enjoyed and/or bought the bedsheets for, into a COLOSSAL WASTE OF TIME!

    I mean, how old are you people? What have you done with yourselves?

    There's a whole world out there! I mean, it's just some mindless movies, dammit, IT'S JUST A FICTIONAL UNIVERSE!

    And, anyway, you're probably better off, if you take it that seriously, to just save up your money and go to Disney's Galaxy's Edge. Go on. Stop complaining and just give Disney all of your money.

    Because if you don't give it to them for Star Wars, you will for the Avengers.
    It's worse than you think, mate. It's not just people talking about Star Wars. If you look around there's people talking about elves and wizards and dragons all over the place.
    Laugh hawkeyefan, MarkB, Maxperson laughed with this post

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zardnaar View Post
    Lucas was subtle
    ....

    um .....


    .....

    It can hardly be a coincidence that no language on Earth has ever produced the expression "as subtle as George Lucas". George Lucas is obvious. Sometimes his movies are as blunt as Will Ferrell screaming, "I LOVE KUROSAWA!" Some of his movies achieve a degree of unsophistication that can only be the result of a special effort. This ugliness arises because Lucas never met a wipe that he thought couldn't be overused in transition, and and was apparently unaware that these types of transitions can vary.
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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morrus View Post
    It's worse than you think, mate. It's not just people talking about Star Wars. If you look around there's people talking about elves and wizards and dragons all over the place.
    I mean ... that's fine.

    So long as they aren't talking about the word that rhymes with Maladin.

    Dem's fighting words. Gotta have standards.
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morrus View Post
    So cite it. Where on film does it say that lifting a rock is “next level stuff” and harder than aiming a torpedo, as you claimed? Where, on screen, does it say that?

    (It doesn’t, of course, which is why after asking three times, all your answers are still just vague handwavy “oh, on the screen somewhere”).
    Quote Originally Posted by lowkey13 View Post
    ....

    um .....


    .....

    It can hardly be a coincidence that no language on Earth has ever produced the expression "as subtle as George Lucas". George Lucas is obvious. Sometimes his movies are as blunt as Will Ferrell screaming, "I LOVE KUROSAWA!" Some of his movies achieve a degree of unsophistication that can only be the result of a special effort. This ugliness arises because Lucas never met a wipe that he thought couldn't be overused in transition, and and was apparently unaware that these types of transitions can vary.
    Compared to Disney Wars he was. It's more Michael Bey less Lucas. Bigger explosions, bigger ships, more force powers, less plot, less character development.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zardnaar View Post
    Compared to Disney Wars he was. It's more Michael Bey less Lucas. Bigger explosions, bigger ships, more force powers, less plot, less character development.
    You... did... watch the prequels, didn't you?

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morrus View Post
    So cite it. Where on film does it say that lifting a rock is “next level stuff” and harder than aiming a torpedo, as you claimed? Where, on screen, does it say that?

    (It doesn’t, of course, which is why after asking three times, all your answers are still just vague handwavy “oh, on the screen somewhere”).
    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    Honestly, I think when it comes to the films only, very little is codified to the extent that many seem to think. Most of it is left pretty vague. We see examples of all kinds of things, but I don't know if we need or should accept these examples as being applicable in all instances. I mean, @Zardnaar says to look at what the movies show us....and I did exactly that in my breakdown above, and I came away with a very different conclusion than he does.

    And all that really means is that there's no one correct interpretation. You can mix and match different examples from the films and draw just about any conclusion you'd like. I think the only objective conclusion that we can draw is that we aren't given enough information to accurately state that the Force always works this way or that way, and there are never any exceptions.

    I do think that all the extended universe stuff is a big stumbling block for many people. All the old comics and novels and video games. They want all that stuff to "matter", and the fact that it "doesn't matter" is irksome. So they tend to be more resistant to the new material by default.
    Well the extended universe lasted 30 years and feeds into audiences expectations. Sure they decleared it non canon but it doesn't make it go away. The best of it was also up there with ESB.

    Disney obviously chose a different approach and hence the backlash, boycotts and financial problems (toylines, Solo). There's also an article floating around abut the typical Star Wars fan. It's a 43 year old white male and I'm younger than that so you had 30 years of experience and expectations Disney nuked. They're the ones who huy the toys, comics etc and have been doing it since the early 90s if not child hood Marvel comics.
    And some of those stories were very good. Knights of the Old Republic, Thrawn Trilogy/Duology, anything by Zahn/ Drew Kapeshyn, Han Solo Trilogy. They also had worse than TLJ but it's open season on that stuff as well.

    Disney can do what they want it's there franchise now. Doesn't mean you have to buy into it. Haven't bought any of the new novel or comics just read the wiki. It's just fatigue 25 years of novels don't really want to start over an do it all over again especially when the new novels aren't that well regarded even if you like the new movies.

  8. #108
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    At Billd91

    Yep and two of them are trash as well, worse than TLJ which can at least Stan on it's own as an ok movie it just doesn't play nice with the OT or TFA.

    Difference is if I insult Anakin, TPM or AotC I don't get called a sexist pig. All of them are worse than Rey/TLJ. RotS I put over TLJ.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zardnaar View Post
    Compared to Disney Wars he was. It's more Michael Bey less Lucas. Bigger explosions, bigger ships, more force powers, less plot, less character development.
    So, I'm sure this has been pointed out hundreds of times before, but one more time-

    How old were you when you first saw Star Wars? The original trilogy?

    Now take that, and then take in all the associated stuff with it. You know- the bedsheets. The lunchboxes. The figures and the toys that you went "pew pew pew" with.

    Heck, maybe you were even the right age to go, "I wish I had an Ewok friend!" Who knows?

    And then think of all of those years you had, in the wilderness, pining for anything else. Maybe a comic? Maybe a videogame (like the original vector Star Wars arcade that consumed countless of your quarters)? Maybe the whole EU?

    I don't know.

    But strangely, that whole ur-experience tends to resonate with a certain crowd more than others. Star Wars was great, but people tend to be a little bit blind to its shortcomings.

    Like ... Mark Hamill's acting was terrible. Like really, really bad ... especially given some of his co-stars.

    Like ... some terrible plot points (see what I reference above- Luke had never flown in space, and was given a friggin' X-Wing?).

    Like ... it was never actually plotted out, which makes parts of it creepy. ("Daddy, if Luke and Leia are brother and sister, why did they kiss like that?")

    Like ... Vader was never intended to be Luke's father in the first movie (makes sense now, doesn't it?). (Seriously, the whole Luke/Leia/Vader thing was retcon at the last minute in ESB, but no one is talking about how terrible it make ANH, are they?)



    I could keep going, but it's pointless. You can't cr** on someone else's childhood- that's why we love it. It's why I love OSR/1e despite its manifold flaws, for example.

    Anyway, before I finish up, it always is good to remember that it's best not to hold onto something you like too tightly, or you'll kill it. It's people that glorify the past that will keep Star Wars from a new generation. Let them enjoy what you did.
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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morrus View Post
    So cite it. Where on film does it say that lifting a rock is “next level stuff” and harder than aiming a torpedo, as you claimed? Where, on screen, does it say that?

    (It doesn’t, of course, which is why after asking three times, all your answers are still just vague handwavy “oh, on the screen somewhere”).
    Quote Originally Posted by lowkey13 View Post
    So, I'm sure this has been pointed out hundreds of times before, but one more time-

    How old were you when you first saw Star Wars? The original trilogy?

    Now take that, and then take in all the associated stuff with it. You know- the bedsheets. The lunchboxes. The figures and the toys that you went "pew pew pew" with.

    Heck, maybe you were even the right age to go, "I wish I had an Ewok friend!" Who knows?

    And then think of all of those years you had, in the wilderness, pining for anything else. Maybe a comic? Maybe a videogame (like the original vector Star Wars arcade that consumed countless of your quarters)? Maybe the whole EU?

    I don't know.

    But strangely, that whole ur-experience tends to resonate with a certain crowd more than others. Star Wars was great, but people tend to be a little bit blind to its shortcomings.

    Like ... Mark Hamill's acting was terrible. Like really, really bad ... especially given some of his co-stars.

    Like ... some terrible plot points (see what I reference above- Luke had never flown in space, and was given a friggin' X-Wing?).

    Like ... it was never actually plotted out, which makes parts of it creepy. ("Daddy, if Luke and Leia are brother and sister, why did they kiss like that?")

    Like ... Vader was never intended to be Luke's father in the first movie (makes sense now, doesn't it?). (Seriously, the whole Luke/Leia/Vader thing was retcon at the last minute in ESB, but no one is talking about how terrible it make ANH, are they?)



    I could keep going, but it's pointless. You can't cr** on someone else's childhood- that's why we love it. It's why I love OSR/1e despite its manifold flaws, for example.

    Anyway, before I finish up, it always is good to remember that it's best not to hold onto something you like too tightly, or you'll kill it. It's people that glorify the past that will keep Star Wars from a new generation. Let them enjoy what you did.
    Saw them in VHS, I did see Jedi at the theatre. I didn't have any if the merch as a child couldn't afford it. That came in 93+.

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