Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi argument

Mercurius · Apr 17, 2019

I think a lot of the gap in force power usage has to do with the difference between special effects in the 70s-80s and more recently, not to mention the influence of wuxia and MCU. Compare what Jedi can do in the original trilogy vs the prequels. The "wow, kewl" factor has been upped substantially so that we can no longer have Alec Guinness doing a slow whirl - everything has to be Bruce Lee with jet-powered wings.

That said, just as some of the criticisms of the new films and Rey might be tinged with sexism (although I don't see that from Zardnaar), I think it would also be willfully ignorant of us not to recognize the "Girl Power Effect" in Hollywood - where films are being made or remade with female (and/or non-white) central characters, with endless variations of "Girls can do everything dudes can do, but better." As a father of two girls I can applaud this to some degree, because I like the fact that my daughters are being raised in a context where they have no inkling of even the thought that they are intrinsically less than males. But there is a subtlety to this that is often lost and ends up feeling narratively contrived and forced at times. And I can't help but feel that Rey was at least sub-consciously created with the idea that she is slightly better than all the male Jedi, past and present, and will fix all the crap they screwed up.

That aside, some of the "hallowed view" of the original trilogy is undoubtedly rose-tinged nostalgia, but I think there is something deeper at play. There is a magic, a mythic resonance to the original trilogy that the latter two don't capture, at least not to the same degree. The prequels were "Vader-ized"...they ironically relied too much on technology, and also lacked the chemistry of the earlier cast. The recent films lack originality and freshness, and feel more like fan fiction than authentic next chapters in an epic story by its original creator (not unlike what I imagine a hypothetical "King Aragorn" Netflix series would be like, or the season 7--and presumably 8--of Game of Thrones is like).

My snapshot takes:

Originals: Mythic classics, with some flaws, albeit charming ones.
Prequels: Visually and imaginatively stunning, but fatal flaws in casting and acting.
Sequels: Unimaginative and unoriginal fan fiction, but fun and with some nice touches and a strongish cast.

lowkey13 · Apr 17, 2019

*Deleted by user*

Zardnaar · Apr 17, 2019

Morrus said:
So cite it. Where on film does it say that lifting a rock is “next level stuff” and harder than aiming a torpedo, as you claimed? Where, on screen, does it say that?

(It doesn’t, of course, which is why after asking three times, all your answers are still just vague handwavy “oh, on the screen somewhere”).

lowkey13 said:
So, I'm sure this has been pointed out hundreds of times before, but one more time-

How old were you when you first saw Star Wars? The original trilogy?

Now take that, and then take in all the associated stuff with it. You know- the bedsheets. The lunchboxes. The figures and the toys that you went "pew pew pew" with.

Heck, maybe you were even the right age to go, "I wish I had an Ewok friend!" Who knows?

And then think of all of those years you had, in the wilderness, pining for anything else. Maybe a comic? Maybe a videogame (like the original vector Star Wars arcade that consumed countless of your quarters)? Maybe the whole EU?

I don't know.

But strangely, that whole ur-experience tends to resonate with a certain crowd more than others. Star Wars was great, but people tend to be a little bit blind to its shortcomings.

Like ... Mark Hamill's acting was terrible. Like really, really bad ... especially given some of his co-stars.

Like ... some terrible plot points (see what I reference above- Luke had never flown in space, and was given a friggin' X-Wing?).

Like ... it was never actually plotted out, which makes parts of it creepy. ("Daddy, if Luke and Leia are brother and sister, why did they kiss like that?")

Like ... Vader was never intended to be Luke's father in the first movie (makes sense now, doesn't it?). (Seriously, the whole Luke/Leia/Vader thing was retcon at the last minute in ESB, but no one is talking about how terrible it make ANH, are they?)

I could keep going, but it's pointless. You can't cr** on someone else's childhood- that's why we love it. It's why I love OSR/1e despite its manifold flaws, for example.

Anyway, before I finish up, it always is good to remember that it's best not to hold onto something you like too tightly, or you'll kill it. It's people that glorify the past that will keep Star Wars from a new generation. Let them enjoy what you did.

Mercurius said:
I think a lot of the gap in force power usage has to do with the difference between special effects in the 70s-80s and more recently, not to mention the influence of wuxia and MCU. Compare what Jedi can do in the original trilogy vs the prequels. The "wow, kewl" factor has been upped substantially so that we can no longer have Alec Guinness doing a slow whirl - everything has to be Bruce Lee with jet-powered wings.

That said, just as some of the criticisms of the new films and Rey might be tinged with sexism (although I don't see that from Zardnaar), I think it would also be willfully ignorant of us not to recognize the "Girl Power Effect" in Hollywood - where films are being made or remade with female (and/or non-white) central characters, with endless variations of "Girls can do everything dudes can do, but better." As a father of two girls I can applaud this to some degree, because I like the fact that my daughters are being raised in a context where they have no inkling of even the thought that they are intrinsically less than males. But there is a subtlety to this that is often lost and ends up feeling narratively contrived and forced at times. And I can't help but feel that Rey was at least sub-consciously created with the idea that she is slightly better than all the male Jedi, past and present, and will fix all the crap they screwed up.

That aside, some of the "hallowed view" of the original trilogy is undoubtedly rose-tinged nostalgia, but I think there is something deeper at play. There is a magic, a mythic resonance to the original trilogy that the latter two don't capture, at least not to the same degree. The prequels were "Vader-ized"...they ironically relied too much on technology, and also lacked the chemistry of the earlier cast. The recent films lack originality and freshness, and feel more like fan fiction than authentic next chapters in an epic story by its original creator (not unlike what I imagine a hypothetical "King Aragorn" Netflix series would be like, or the season 7--and presumably 8--of Game of Thrones is like).

My snapshot takes:

Originals: Mythic classics, with some flaws, albeit charming ones.
Prequels: Visually and imaginatively stunning, but fatal flaws in casting and acting.
Sequels: Unimaginative and unoriginal fan fiction, but fun and with some nice touches and a strongish cast.

You can combine the old with the new though. Kylo vs Rey TFA looked great, lacked the emotion. Then you have Jedi dancing in TLJ or AotC or TPM and it looks cheesy. Also the cgi won't age well.

Compelling villain Luger can't match Superman mano a mano, but he has brains. Luke can probably chop Thrawn into pieces but brains. You don't need great special effects for that. Rey's a bad character that's female Anakin's worse that's male. You can do girl power better or more compelling as well. Other shows and movies can pull it off well why can't Star Wars? Where's Joss Whedon when you need him.

Morrus · Apr 17, 2019

[MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION] you’re still doing it. Please stop repeatedly quoting my post.

Zardnaar · Apr 17, 2019

Stupid phone. Anyone else gonna admit to watching Buffy and Gilmore Girls? Wife's a fan so I saw it as well.

Istbor · Apr 17, 2019

Zardnaar said:
You can combine the old with the new though. Kylo vs Rey TFA looked great, lacked the emotion. Then you have Jedi dancing in TLJ or AotC or TPM and it looks cheesy. Also the cgi won't age well.

Compelling villain Luger can't match Superman mano a mano, but he has brains. Luke can probably chop Thrawn into pieces but brains. You don't need great special effects for that. Rey's a bad character that's female Anakin's worse that's male. You can do girl power better or more compelling as well. Other shows and movies can pull it off well why can't Star Wars? Where's Joss Whedon when you need him.

Whoa. The sword play in The Last Jedi is on a totally different level than watching the benny hill swarms of Jedi from the Prequels.

doctorbadwolf · Apr 17, 2019

Morrus said:
ANH from the time Luke met Ben to the end of the film was about a day, at which point he then blew up a Death Star without a targeting computer. Anakin won a pod race and then blew up a Federation control ship as a 9 year old having had no training ever at all. But the girl's the problem, because she lifted up a rock, eh?

When rock lifting is a training thing! That Yoda throws shade at Luke for not being able to immediately do better at, and it is clear that Luke's problem is not believing he can do it. He limits himself.
Rey has other issues.

Paul Goldstone said:
The Last Jedi was by far the worst of all the SW films. It promised so much and delivered less than zero. It ignored swathes of material from TWA (ANH clone).

I've see many many more people put it in their top three than put it at the bottom of their list of SW movies.

If you can use ships with hyperspace drives to take out capital ships, why hasn't the rebellion/resistance been using that tactic since forever. Ridiculous.

Still having a capital ship is more valuable than destroying an enemy ship, most of the time, when you have a much smaller resource pool than the enemy. Further, there is no reason to think that this maneuver is easy to successfully pull off, or possible in a wide range of circumstances.

As to the story or Rey and her family, one can only presume that EmoRen lied for some purpose that Rey wasn't a skywalker to get her to turn a darksider. Though one wonders how she could be a Skywalker, she would hvae to have been abandoned by Luke or Leia. There was no Mara Jade refernce since they binned all the good expanded universe stuff though I am sure it could retcon in for the next instalment.

No, she just isn't a Skywalker.

Istbor said:
Sorry, but canon disagrees with you.

QUI-GON: You should be proud of your son. He gives without any thought of reward.
SHMI: He knows nothing of greed. He has...
QUI-GON: He has special powers.
SHMI: Yes...
QUI-GON: He can see things before they happen. That's why he appears to have such quick reflexes. It is a Jedi trait.

Also I can't read this quotes without hearing Liam Neeson's amazing voice.

Thank you, I was gonna say this. It's explicit on screen movie canon.

Zardnaar said:
Stupid phone.

You need to clear your cache for this website on your browser. To do so, just close every enworld tab, then close the phone app completely. When you quote reply to someone, scroll up before starting your reply, and see if you've quoted multiple posts, or just the one you meant to.

Mercurius · Apr 17, 2019

lowkey13 said:
Disagree. I think that it is easy to confuse the idea of, "Girls can do anything boys can," with "Girls can do anything boys can, but better." To explain why would take more time and be more contentious than I want to be, but to nutshell it-

We are so used to the protagonist being a male, usually white, always straight (to the extent that it matters, but getting the girl), that any deviation from that will feel strange at first, and will seem like it's trying harder, even when it isn't.

So it's lose-lose for the time being; you literally cannot be "subtle" because people are so used to the "default" that the will find any nit to pick even they don't necessarily mean to. Even if it is completely and totally subtle, or even if a movie role was written to be genderless or colorless, people will complain if it varies from the (white, male, straight) default; this is changing, but slowly.

I understand all of this, but think that it is often overstated or over-done, and we do end up with a lot of "but better" situations that don't come down to people feeling strange for seeing a diversity folks in starring roles. Furthermore, I dislike the implication that any questioning of this is inherently because someone feels strange about the protagonist being non-white/male/straight. And yes, I do think that film-makers often over-compensate, with awkwardly perfectly representational casts or configurations of characters; that is, there's often a quota to fulfill that may be in contrast with what makes sense in the context of the story itself. It is a noble idea but can seem a bit contrived or forced.

This is part of a larger cultural conversation around identity politics which is highly charged and, unfortunately, largely lacking in nuance.

lowkey13 said:
This boils down to a matter of opinion, but I will note (when it comes to originality and freshness), that:

1. TFA was pretty much ANH. "True fans" were like, "Meh, unoriginal, total rip off."

2. TLJ was original, subverting expectations in several areas, and "True Fans" said, "How dare they trample on the ABSOLUTE CORRECT 100% CANON of Star Wars? It's like they dug up my great gradmother's corpse to have the intercourse with her!"

So ... ya can't win on that count. IMO.

Well, we can allow for more nuance and diversity of opinion, and not make assumptions about where people are coming from.

ccs · Apr 17, 2019

Zardnaar said:
Missiles in SW can be guided just like IRL. Hell in the 90's they could put a missile down an air vent (1991). The implication was though he turned his targeting computer off and used the force to aim it. That is pretty much the implication IMHO. In RPG terms he blew a force point.

That's the key right there. YOUR opinion.
Conveniently the film never goes into detail as to how exactly Luke "Used the Force" to make this nigh impossible shot. So we're both right.
You saw Luke improve his aim. I saw him guide those torpedoes into making a hard right angle....

As for your game term of blowing a Force Point.... It's like the HP = Meat/Not-meat debate in D&D. What's that to hit bonus really representing story-wise?

ccs · Apr 17, 2019

Quote Originally Posted by Zardnaar View Post
Compared to Disney Wars he was. It's more Michael Bey less Lucas. Bigger explosions, bigger ships, more force powers, less plot, less character development.