Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi argument

Morrus · Apr 14, 2019

Star Wars has never been popular in China. Neither has Harry Potter. Or a bunch of other things which are popular in the west. This is not an indictment of the property.

Morrus · Apr 14, 2019

Guys, if you want yet another “I hate TLJ” thread, please start one. Or post in one of the old ones. Let’s not threadcrap.

Umbran · Apr 14, 2019

Zardnaar said:
To many franchises assume they can get new fans and old ones don't matter.

With respect, you missed a point.

"The fans" are not a unit. The folks who grew up on it *DO NOT AGREE* on what a new movie should be like. The franchise doesn't assume the old ones dont' matter. They recognize that they are not of one single mind, and cannot be pleased all at once.

The actors of your favorite characters age and die. The studio cannot focus on them forever.

Who buys the toys and merch and guess what's not selling?

With respect - you seem to forget your history. Traditionally, "the fans" were kids, and the merch was bought by parents for children. Having 40+ year old guys buying merch is relatively new, by comparison. The merch fortune was originally built on parents buying for kids, long before the EU existed.

Star Wars is alive because of the hardcore.

Nah. Star Wars is alive due to it having a basic story that reflects pretty much all the adventure stories of old. It was too big well before the 90s to think that it'd sleep forever after.

Umbran · Apr 14, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
This. If they cave to the people that hated TLJ and undo it’s legacy, I’m out. Anyone can be the hero. That’s the point of the last movie. If they reverse that, then this whole trilogy has been pointless BS.

Yeah. There were too many good bits of message in TLJ for throwing them out to be a good move, story wise.

I also don't think pandering to a bunch of people who can't stand a female lead is a good move. Worldwide, TLJ grossed over $1.3 billion. That is in no way a failure that needs to be walked back.

hawkeyefan · Apr 14, 2019

Mercurius said:
I would not bring a 4-year old to a Star Wars movie - talk about over-stimulation. Maybe 7, but maybe not until 8 or 9.

Nah, I took my then 4 year old daughter to the Last Jedi and she loved it. This was after having watched The Force Awakens about a hundred times at home, so there was no way she was going to wait. Same with this one...she’s 5 now and I showed her the trailer and she was immediately excited.

But my point isn’t about the specific age...my point is that these movies are meant to capture the imaginations of kids. The same way the originals were meant to.

Zardnaar said:
TLJ is alright as a popcorn flick movie, as a Star Wars movie its bad

Wait...aren’t Star Wars films the very definition of popcorn flicks?

Mercurius · Apr 14, 2019

Umbran said:
Yeah. There were too many good bits of message in TLJ for throwing them out to be a good move, story wise.

I also don't think pandering to a bunch of people who can't stand a female lead is a good move. Worldwide, TLJ grossed over $1.3 billion. That is in no way a failure that needs to be walked back.

I've only been following "LastJediGate" peripherally, but I don't like or agree with the implication that those who don't like the new films can't stand a female lead. I think the criticisms are more diverse and nuanced than that. I'm not saying those folks don't exist, but there are other reasons to dislike the new films and to me it is a rather convenient way to ignore legitimate criticisms by reducing them to sexism.

Mercurius · Apr 14, 2019

hawkeyefan said:
Nah, I took my then 4 year old daughter to the Last Jedi and she loved it. This was after having watched The Force Awakens about a hundred times at home, so there was no way she was going to wait. Same with this one...she’s 5 now and I showed her the trailer and she was immediately excited.

But my point isn’t about the specific age...my point is that these movies are meant to capture the imaginations of kids. The same way the originals were meant to.

I will leave the age question aside and I agree with your point, and rephrase it thusly: the films are meant to capture the imaginations of people in general, but especially kids.

hawkeyefan · Apr 14, 2019

Mercurius said:
I will leave the age question aside and I agree with your point, and rephrase it thusly: the films are meant to capture the imaginations of people in general, but especially kids.

Yeah, I think the films can absolutely be enjoyed by adults. The only issue is that many adults who are likely to go just bring so much baggage with them as an audience. That’s by no means universal, and baggage isn’t exactly the perfect term for it...but it’s what comes to mind.

I feel like part of the issue with these movies is that they simply can’t be what many want them to be, and that’s mostly due to the viewers. They can’t be new to anyone who grew up on the originals...and that newness is what people are really looking for.

I noticed this once my kid saw The Force Awakens and she was as amazed by it as I was by the original. Rey was her hero the same way Luke was mine.

And I think that’s what’s lost on a lot of people who complain about the movies.

Zardnaar · Apr 14, 2019

hawkeyefan said:
Yeah, I think the films can absolutely be enjoyed by adults. The only issue is that many adults who are likely to go just bring so much baggage with them as an audience. That’s by no means universal, and baggage isn’t exactly the perfect term for it...but it’s what comes to mind.

I feel like part of the issue with these movies is that they simply can’t be what many want them to be, and that’s mostly due to the viewers. They can’t be new to anyone who grew up on the originals...and that newness is what people are really looking for.

I noticed this once my kid saw The Force Awakens and she was as amazed by it as I was by the original. Rey was her hero the same way Luke was mine.

And I think that’s what’s lost on a lot of people who complain about the movies.

TFA is a decent movie though, bit repetitive but kids would have liked anything Star Wars related. I would have used a female lead myself, mostly because its different compared to the other 6 movies. I would have paid a bit more attention to what happened in the previous movies though and tied the world to the older movies a bit better. Solo did a decent job in that regard for example;

Zardnaar · Apr 14, 2019

Umbran said:
With respect, you missed a point.

"The fans" are not a unit. The folks who grew up on it *DO NOT AGREE* on what a new movie should be like. The franchise doesn't assume the old ones dont' matter. They recognize that they are not of one single mind, and cannot be pleased all at once.

The actors of your favorite characters age and die. The studio cannot focus on them forever.

With respect - you seem to forget your history. Traditionally, "the fans" were kids, and the merch was bought by parents for children. Having 40+ year old guys buying merch is relatively new, by comparison. The merch fortune was originally built on parents buying for kids, long before the EU existed.

Nah. Star Wars is alive due to it having a basic story that reflects pretty much all the adventure stories of old. It was too big well before the 90s to think that it'd sleep forever after.

Star Wars was dead, and an author named Timothey Zahn wrote a novel called Heir to the Empire. It basically brought Star Wars back and lead to further novels, comics, video games etc and the 1st new Star Wars footage shot since the OT (an ad and video game).

Then Lucas rereleased the movies and did TPM.

The only thing Star Wars related that was still going in 1990 for example was an RPG game and the company gave the author some RPG material. Palpatines name along with Coruscant and a few other bits and pieces came from the old Legends material.