Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi argument

Umbran said:

Yeah. There were too many good bits of message in TLJ for throwing them out to be a good move, story wise.

I also don't think pandering to a bunch of people who can't stand a female lead is a good move. Worldwide, TLJ grossed over $1.3 billion. That is in no way a failure that needs to be walked back.

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Messaging isn't worth a crap plot, boring lead, and not paying attention to world building. From the trailer they seem to be rying to fix a few things. The trailer is decent, makes me want to see IX and that is what its job is for. TFA was a good movie and had positive messaging in it so its not hard. Daisy is the best actor they have had yet as a lead, but the material they gave here isn't great she won't be replacing Han/Luke/Leia anytime soon though in terms of popularity.

I'm getting to see it whether I really want to or not. One of the perks of my life I enjoy I guess. I hope I enjoy it...but I have much lower hopes for this movie than I have for other movies, which means I can be impressed, not that I will be.

I just hope they don't have jokes that are going to be dated before the movie is even released this time around.

Mercurius said:

I've only been following "LastJediGate" peripherally, but I don't like or agree with the implication that those who don't like the new films can't stand a female lead. I think the criticisms are more diverse and nuanced than that. I'm not saying those folks don't exist, but there are other reasons to dislike the new films and to me it is a rather convenient way to ignore legitimate criticisms by reducing them to sexism.

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This was a pretty big mistake I think JJ and the rest have backed off from in recent months. I think when you have half the comments coming from women and then telling them that they hate themselves...and it's coming from a white male telling these women this...that it didn't go over all that well with the general audiences as they slowly found out about this. They took a cursory look at demographics that were criticizing without taking a broader look before commenting.

Today, with the exception of one toxic individual (which, I haven't a clue why they keep him around, he's managed to insult just about EVERY demographic out there, women, minorities, etc), I don't see anyone at or connected to Lucasarts saying anything of the sort recently. I think they've taken some of the legitimate criticisms into mind.

However, I think with the break coming, the TYPE of reset that will be done will be dependent on how IX does at the theater. If it does well, it probably will just be a reset of time to let things settle and build off what's been created. Probably new series on streaming to add onto the new EU along with at least a trilogy of movies if not more in the like which Netflix and other streaming services make. A Cinematic release would come eventually as well, just not as fast as the SW movies have recently to build time and hype about it. IF it crashes or bombs, that reset could be one that is a remake of the originals or prequels, or even a reset of the ST itself.

Mercurius said:

I've only been following "LastJediGate" peripherally, but I don't like or agree with the implication that those who don't like the new films can't stand a female lead. I think the criticisms are more diverse and nuanced than that.

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The film is not perfect, of course. There's legitimate criticism to be had of any film.

The implication is not about individuals. It is that, in aggregate, misogyny drove more of the negative assessments than legitimate critique did. Now, you *admit* that you are only "peripherally" aware of it, even years after, so I don't see as you have context to be able to judge that statement. I, honestly, don't have the time or inclination to educate you and re-litigate how much of this was driven by men who are not so much thoughtful movie critics as they are uncomfortable with the changing social landscape around them.

Umbran said:

The actors of your favorite characters age and die. The studio cannot focus on them forever.

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James Bond, Ghostbusters, Batman, Spiderman, and a plethora of other movies which focus on characters, but change the actors disagree with that statement. I'm not saying they should have replaced Luke, Leia, Han and the rest with other actors, but they could have focused on them forever if they wanted to.

Umbran said:

The film is not perfect, of course. There's legitimate criticism to be had of any film.

The implication is not about individuals. It is that, in aggregate, misogyny drove more of the negative assessments than legitimate critique did. Now, you *admit* that you are only "peripherally" aware of it, even years after, so I don't see as you have context to be able to judge that statement. I, honestly, don't have the time or inclination to educate you and re-litigate how much of this was driven by men who are not so much thoughtful movie critics as they are uncomfortable with the changing social landscape around them.

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There was an element of that sure but even the female hardcore fans dislike TLJ. They're salty to.

If you don't like powerful women beats me how you are a hardcore fan anyway. First two movies in the OT you may have thought Leia was the rebel leader. In the third movie it was Mon Mothma.

In the old legends material the New Republic had back to back female leaders. They also had great female Jedi (Bastila Shan, Mara, Jaina, Leia), and female Sith (Lumiya, Zannah). Then again they had poor characters like Daala as well and Darth Talon was kinda lame as well.

If the movie bombs (which I doubt) I expect they will do a different era like the Knights of the Old Republic era. Next trilogy will be the Game of Thrones people and they are good at world building and interesting characters.

Zardnaar said:

There was an element of that sure but even the female hardcore fans dislike TLJ.

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Citation please.

I mean, I know there are people who disliked it. I know some of those were women. And some of the women were "hardcore fans" (whatever that means - it is easier to make blanket statements about a group when the group isn't well defined). But to state this as a general thing? Who the heck are you to speak for an entire demographic?

Rottentomatoes and metacritic are, alas, gameable platforms, so their data is of questionable accuracy.

How about we look at some exit survey data? As in, surveys of people as they left the theater at the time?

"...on ComScore/Screen Engine, Last Jedi earned an 89% overall positive score and a five-star rating from moviegoers. That’s in the wheelhouse of what Force Awakens earned (90% overall positive/ 4 1/2 stars) and Rogue One (91% positive, 4 1/2 stars). These are scientific, statistically accumulated audience exit polls that studios can take to the bank, and which they rely upon to deconstruct various elements of a film’s opening."


https://deadline.com/2017/12/star-w...c-imdb-users-cinemascore-posttrak-1202228837/

"Interestingly, the 89 percent figure stays the same whether respondents described themselves as a "big" Star Wars fan or a regular fan. Even among self-described non-Star Wars fans — whom, one presumes, must have wandered into the wrong theater — 81 percent loved or liked The Last Jedi. "

(Bolding mine - it seems to put a hole in your assertion above)

https://mashable.com/2017/12/20/last-jedi-poll/#RyT05h4uZiqF

Again, in the end, the film grossed $1.3 billion dollars. This is not a failure by any reasonable measure. Or do you content that folks spent over a billion dollars... hate watching?

While it is laced with profanity, Star Wars: The Last Jedi: An Unbridled Rage does a good job at laying out the flaws and holes in the movie without any sexism.

On a personal note, I have spoken with many people, all of whom disliked the movie for the reasons in the above rant and none of whom had a problem with Rey not being Ray.

Umbran said:

Citation please.

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The ones in youtube, my Star Wars RPG group, various ones online. Not all of them of course its 50/50 or 60/40 something like that. Just an opinion and from what I have seen.

Maxperson said:

While it is laced with profanity, Star Wars: The Last Jedi: An Unbridled Rage does a good job at laying out the flaws and holes in the movie without any sexism.

On a personal note, I have spoken with many people, all of whom disliked the movie for the reasons in the above rant and none of whom had a problem with Rey not being Ray.

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I quite liked that one, I think its the accent and "that is interesting lets follow it up- oh wait".

Zardnaar said:

The ones in youtube, my Star Wars RPG group, various ones online. Not all of them of course its 50/50 or 60/40 something like that. Just an opinion and from what I have seen.

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"Anecdote" is not the singular of "data" See above - I extended the point about citation. Among self-avowed fans of Star Wars, 89% of them liked or loved the movie at the time.