Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi argument - Page 5
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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zardnaar View Post
    I quite liked that one, I think its the accent and "that is interesting lets follow it up- oh wait".
    I find that most of the same sorts of issues are found in the original trilogy. Very early on, for example, the guy is criticising the film for lack of world building, for not really laying out what the Republic and First Order were. Not that the original films layed out what the Empire was, but hey, we'll hold this against one movie, but not the other. Sure!

    This is a thing about Space Opera - it doesn't hold up under real deep logical scrutiny. Because Space Opera isn't about realism and relentless logic. It is a genre of melodrama - appealing more to the emotions than to the intellect. And criticism along these lines generally amounts to arguing that the movie is flawed because it wasn't a thing it never claimed to be, largely missing the point of the piece.

    Might as well criticize a lemon meringue pie for not being pizza. I mean, sure, maybe you like pizza more, and wanted pizza when you went into the theater, but it isn't like they did a bait-and-switch on you. And it isn't like, as a Star Wars fan, they ever gave you pizza to begin with! But we will hold it against this lemon meringue and not the one from our youth. That's sensible. :/
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurius View Post
    I've only been following "LastJediGate" peripherally, but I don't like or agree with the implication that those who don't like the new films can't stand a female lead. I think the criticisms are more diverse and nuanced than that. I'm not saying those folks don't exist, but there are other reasons to dislike the new films and to me it is a rather convenient way to ignore legitimate criticisms by reducing them to sexism.
    Some criticism are nuanced, yes. But there's an awful lot that circle around to Rey being a Mary Sue and holding her to a standard that they don't for either Luke or Anakin. That's where this boils down to sexism.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Umbran View Post
    I find that most of the same sorts of issues are found in the original trilogy. Very early on, for example, the guy is criticising the film for lack of world building, for not really laying out what the Republic and First Order were. Not that the original films layed out what the Empire was, but hey, we'll hold this against one movie, but not the other. Sure!

    This is a thing about Space Opera - it doesn't hold up under real deep logical scrutiny. Because Space Opera isn't about realism and relentless logic. It is a genre of melodrama - appealing more to the emotions than to the intellect. And criticism along these lines generally amounts to arguing that the movie is flawed because it wasn't a thing it never claimed to be, largely missing the point of the piece.

    Might as well criticize a lemon meringue pie for not being pizza. I mean, sure, maybe you like pizza more, and wanted pizza when you went into the theater, but it isn't like they did a bait-and-switch on you. And it isn't like, as a Star Wars fan, they ever gave you pizza to begin with! But we will hold it against this lemon meringue and not the one from our youth. That's sensible. :/
    Surely the difference must be in the films, yes? The original trilogy is brilliance and the new one is the worst! It's clear because someone said it on the internet!!!

    It has nothing to do with the fact that most of the people in question formed their opinion of the original trilogy when they were children, and now they're applying adult level criticism to the new movies. No....that can't be it at all!
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  4. #44
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    I have mixed feeling about this.

    On the one hard, it looks to be a stunning adventure, one I'm confident J.J. has filled with charm. On the other hand, I got the sinking feeling J.J. went ahead and undid most of the smart & interesting choices Rian made in TLJ, and thus will end the new trilogy not only with a weaker film than the middle one, but a film that retroactively weakens/cheapens its predecessor. Of course, ending a trilogy with a weaker film hearkens back to the original 3, so you could say it's tradition, I guess.

    I will admit Rey leaping over Kylo's speeding TIE fighter was wicked cool...
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxperson View Post
    While it is laced with profanity, Star Wars: The Last Jedi: An Unbridled Rage does a good job at laying out the flaws and holes in the movie without any sexism.

    On a personal note, I have spoken with many people, all of whom disliked the movie for the reasons in the above rant and none of whom had a problem with Rey not being Ray.
    *Shrug* I have spoken with many, many people, all of whom liked the movie despite the reasons in the above rant. None of whom had a problem with Rey.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mallus View Post
    I have mixed feeling about this.

    On the one hard, it looks to be a stunning adventure, one I'm confident J.J. has filled with charm. On the other hand, I got the sinking feeling J.J. went ahead and undid most of the smart & interesting choices Rian made in TLJ, and thus will end the new trilogy not only with a weaker film than the middle one, but a film that retroactively weakens/cheapens its predecessor. Of course, ending a trilogy with a weaker film hearkens back to the original 3, so you could say it's tradition, I guess.

    I will admit Rey leaping over Kylo's speeding TIE fighter was wicked cool...
    Personally I liked TFA a lot more than TLJ, and I am by no means a JJ Abrams fan. Undoing some of the mistakes that were made in TLJ (and I know this is a point of disagreement) could do a lot to make me like the last Star Wars film of this trilogy. I'm cautiously optimistic that JJ Abrams will at least close the trilogy with a some what coherent story that feels like Star Wars, and will not make me hate the characters like TLJ did.

  7. #47
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    I'll start a new thread then.

  8. #48
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    Fair cop, that.

  9. #49
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    Turns out there were more posts about TLJ than about the new trailer. 48 about TLJ and 32 about TROS. A most effective thread hijack, if ever I saw one.

  10. #50
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    Well, in that case, in order to complete the threadjack (and since I came in late), here are the complete, total, and inarguable rankings of the Star Wars films to date:

    1. Empire Strikes Back.

    2. The Last Jedi.

    3. A New Hope.

    4. Rogue One.

    5. The Force Awakens.

    6. Going to any Star Wars movie with a friend who keeps asking you when Robert Downey Jr. is going to crack some jokes and put on his Metal Suit.

    7. Return of the Jedi.

    8. Having a recurring nightmare that George Lucas has invented time travel and is going to use it to improve your childhood by taking out all the bad guns and replacing Indiana Jones with Jar Jar Binks.

    9. Revenge of the Sith.

    10. The Phantom Menace.

    11. Having a player show up to your D&D game and announcing, "I LOVE PALADINS! THEY ARE SO COOL!"

    12. Caravan of Courage.

    13. Battle of Endor.

    14. Realizing that not only is Star Wars killing off all of the characters you grew up with, but that the actors that played those characters are dying too, and that they abyss you are staring into is staring back at you. Man, that new trailer has me tearing up. I miss you, Carrie Fisher.

    15. Holiday Special. I LOVE COCAINE!!!!!!

    16. Solo (except Lando ... Lando is cool).

    17. George Lucass proposed sequels (look them up ... and be thankful he sold out).

    18. Fully understanding that a space opera that you enjoyed for a few years in your youth and still appreciate to this day is not only nothing more than more corporate IP that Disney is using to take over the world and everyones brains, but is also the breeding ground for a peculiar and nasty strain of nerd-rage with a side-dose of toxic masculinity that frightens the hell out of you.

    19. Attack of the Clones.
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