D&D 5E To boxed text or not to boxed text

Staffan

Legend
I prefer bullet points, and the main reason is that I always need to rewrite the boxed text in my head anyway. That's because the boxed text in D&D adventures is in English, and we play in Swedish (well, more like Swenglish - we usually use English terms for game mechanics and most monsters that don't have an immediately obvious translation, but the "flow" of the game is mostly Swedish).

So, for example, if the adventure has boxed text saying "The cave mouth opens into darkness from which a breezes blows, carrying the faint odor of death. Inside is a natural cave, its floor and ceiling uneven. The passage leads to the west, narrowing as it proceeds.", I still have to translate that to something like "Grottmynningen öppnar sig in mot ett mörker där ni känner hur en bris blåser, och den bär en svag lukt av död. Inuti finns det en naturlig grotta med ojämnt golv och tak. Passagen leder västerut och smalnar av allt eftersom den går vidare."

That is of course a very simple example, taken from a published adventure. And translating that on the fly is kind of hard, particularly when English flows differently from Swedish. For example, the construction "a breeze blows, carrying the faint odor of death" does not feel natural in Swedish. My translation changed that to the equivalent of "and it carries the faint odor of death". But I'm not sure I'd have caught that if translating on the fly.
 

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pemerton

Legend
If I was [MENTION=6981174]Immortal Sun[/MENTION], this would be my reply
And if I was me (which I am) my response would be that [MENTION=6981174]Immortal Sun[/MENTION] misdescribed and mischaracterised my post, and then seemed to get cut when I (reasonably politely) explained how and why.

You're basically arguing that if I presented all my game from the DM's side in a flat monotone, no excitement, no emotional reaction, that my game would be just as good as if I was animated, and used some good presentation habits.
I don't think so. In a post not far upthread I made the comparison to conversation. Most conversation invovles expressing responses. But most conversation is not performance or presentation in the relevant sense.

A GM who in fact doesn't have reactions to things is a different kettle of fish - I haven't thought about that, but I think that could make GMing difficult as (I'm guessing) it would make it much harder to follow and contribute to the dynamics of play.

There's a reason that live play's are popular and part of that is the DM.
Yes, this is true - but live plays are performances. Watching and enjoying a live play is like watching and enjoying comedy quiz shows (QI and the like). It's not RPGing, any more than watching one of those shows is taking part in one.

Another analogy, maybe less apt, is this: to be a good television chef requires having a certain sort of vibrant or quirky personality. But it's not true that being a good chef requires the same.
 
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Hussar

Legend
But, [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION], you rarely have anyone else in the kitchen when preparing a meal. You aren't making any sort of presentation while cooking, because, well, typically you're by yourself. OTOH, during a game, a DM is always presenting. The DM is presenting every single element of the game that isn't being presented by the other players.

Of course DMing is a performance. I'm actually a bit surprised that this is contentious. DMing isn't conversation - that implies a completely equal level and type of participation by everyone in the conversation. I present an idea, you agree or disagree, present your idea and back and forth. But, running a game isn't like that. You are running a game, not engaging in a back and forth exchange of ideas. Even in pass the story stick type indie games, you still generally have the idea that the person presenting the information is doing so in such a fashion as to increase the entertainment at the table. Or, at the very least, keep things moving along.

Gaming is partially performance. Great gaming is very much a performance by all participants who are engaged in creating something that everyone finds entertaining. Simply laying out dry bone facts on the table and then asking which the players want to engage with isn't a fun game to me. That's Warhammer, not role play.
 

pemerton

Legend
But, [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION], you rarely have anyone else in the kitchen when preparing a meal. You aren't making any sort of presentation while cooking, because, well, typically you're by yourself. OTOH, during a game, a DM is always presenting. The DM is presenting every single element of the game that isn't being presented by the other players.

Of course DMing is a performance. I'm actually a bit surprised that this is contentious. DMing isn't conversation

<snip>

Gaming is partially performance. Great gaming is very much a performance by all participants who are engaged in creating something that everyone finds entertaining. Simply laying out dry bone facts on the table and then asking which the players want to engage with isn't a fun game to me. That's Warhammer, not role play.
I don't agree with the comparison to Warhammer. And I want to stick by my comparison to conversation. I'll try to explain.

Central to RPGing on the player side is being one's character. Some people use the term "immersion" but personally I find that that terms carries a lot of baggage. So I prefer to talk about inhabitation of one's character. What I mean by inhabitation, by being one's character, is that - as a player - the choice situation in the game should (in some sense) be the same as the choice faced by one's PC.

Because they're (obviously) not literally the same, imagination is involved. The player has to imagine him-/herself as the character. This imaginative projection is what makes events in the fiction matter - eg the reason why I, as player, am shocked by the discovery that Evard was my (PC's) grandfather is because I, as player, am imaginatively projecting myself into the fiction of my character. A good game system should help with this - for instance, it should be designed so as to engender correpsonding emotions in player and PC (eg it should produce a sense of tension in the player that correlates to moments of tension for the PC, which can be done through the design of action resolution rules).

This is the difference from Warhammer. Warhammer - and similar tabletop wargaing/boardgaming - don't involve this imaginative aspect of inhabiting the character, and they don't locate it at the heart of making choices in the game.

Turning to the comparison to conversation. Conversation isn't monologue, and isn't performance: it's engagement with another person, responding to what they say and inviting their response to whay you say. It's a back-and-forth that is more than just the turn-taking of a boardgame or wargame.

The back-and-forth in RPGing is structured, and focused, in a way that differs from typical conversation. But it's still a back-and-forth of response and invitation-to-respond. The GM has to present (imagined) situations that invite response from the players. And the players have to not only respond, but respond in ways that invite something to come next.

DMing isn't conversation - that implies a completely equal level and type of participation by everyone in the conversation. I present an idea, you agree or disagree, present your idea and back and forth. But, running a game isn't like that. You are running a game, not engaging in a back and forth exchange of ideas. Even in pass the story stick type indie games, you still generally have the idea that the person presenting the information is doing so in such a fashion as to increase the entertainment at the table. Or, at the very least, keep things moving along.
I think this may be the core of our different opinions on this matter.

I think that RPGing very much is the presentation of an idea, and agreement or disagreement. Of course - and here we do agree - the roles of GM and player (in a typically-structured RPG) aren't the same. The GM has to present one category of idea - the engaging situation - and the players a different category of idea - here's how I respond - and the motivations are also different from normal conversation - the player, in particular, should be deriving responses from imaginative inhabitation of his/her PC.

But it's still a back-and-forth of ideas: ideas about the shared fiction. The function of the game mechanics, when they get activated, is to settle disagreements about those ideas when the two participants are each sticking to their guns.

Just as a conversation sometimes falls flat, or comes to a halt, so can RPGing. Keeping it going, by responding and inviting response, is a skill (but not an artistic performance skill). Inexperienced players, or players who have developed bad turtling habits at a particular sort of table, have trouble declaring actions that invite a here's what comes next from the GM. Inexperienced GMs sometimes have trouble framing situations that invite response - in particular, they can sometimes want to write in the response also (this takes many forms: some examples include GMPCs or dominating NPCs; deus ex machina resolutions; flat-out railroading; etc). They can also have trouble with establishing consequences that invite response rather than shut down response (and too much of this can lead to the aforementioned turtling, which in my personal view is a death-spiral for good RPGing).

Simply laying out dry bone facts on the table and then asking which the players want to engage with isn't a fun game to me.
That's not whay I'm describing. Asking the players what they want to engage with isn't presenting an engaging situation to them.

Just the same as offering someone a list of possible conversation topics isn't conversing with them. In fact, a typical way in which a certain sort of shy or socially inept person demonstrates that shyness or social inaptutide is by presenting a list of topics rather than actually conversing.

But what I am asserting is that presenting an engaging situation isn't an artistic performance challenge. It's not about eloquence of wording. It's about the idea - the invitation to respond which the player then picks up on.

Which is what I was pointing to in the Strahd example: a situation containing covered furniture, an open window through which enters a breeze and moonlight, and a mirror that does not reflect is an invitation to respond. That's where the power of the description lies when considered from the point of view of RPGing.
 

Hussar

Legend
Pemerton said:
Which is what I was pointing to in the Strahd example: a situation containing covered furniture, an open window through which enters a breeze and moonlight, and a mirror that does not reflect is an invitation to respond. That's where the power of the description lies when considered from the point of view of RPGing.

But, imagine two DM's. Same scene, both are good DM's, so, let's not go down that particular road. Both are good DM's with good players. It's a healthy table.

The only difference is one DM presents exactly what you just said: There is a room with covered furniture etc. No presentation skills, no, for lack of better word, acting ability.

The other is a DM who is a skilled story teller, can use body language, tone, and tempo to really hammer home meaning.

Which table would you rather sit at?

To me, presenting interesting situations is of course part of good DMing. But, the other side of it, during play, the performance side of it, is equally important.
 

pemerton

Legend
But, imagine two DM's. Same scene, both are good DM's, so, let's not go down that particular road. Both are good DM's with good players. It's a healthy table.

The only difference is one DM presents exactly what you just said: There is a room with covered furniture etc. No presentation skills, no, for lack of better word, acting ability.

The other is a DM who is a skilled story teller, can use body language, tone, and tempo to really hammer home meaning.

Which table would you rather sit at?

To me, presenting interesting situations is of course part of good DMing. But, the other side of it, during play, the performance side of it, is equally important.
We are disagreeing on your last sentence. I don't think that acting/performance is of equal importance. Everything else being equal, a melifluous GM is a good thing, but in my experience it's not normal that everything is equal. Especially when it comes to how published material articulates what matters to GMing and RPGing.
 

Hussar

Legend
Yeah, I don't think we're going to come to any consensus here. I feel that the performance art of DMing is far more important than you seem to.
 


oriaxx77

Explorer
Stumbled across this headline:

Fierce Debate Breaks Out Over 'Dungeons & Dragons' Boxed Text in Adventures

Fierce Debate Breaks Out Over 'Dungeons & Dragons' Boxed Text in Adventures

So where do you come down?
I have never met anyone in IRL who used boxed texts. So I was really surprised how many GM use it in youtube.
Ofc I started to play this game 25 years ago in eastern europe where no one had published modules, just core books, supplements, monster manuals etc. For me one of the joys to be DM is to use my own words and to be creative. But I think that for beginners, boxed texts can help but in the long run it will not do any good. Personally I would leave a game immediately where a DM uses boxed text. It is just unnatural for me and a sign of a not so creative DM and maybe the sign of a railroad.
 

el-remmen

Moderator Emeritus
What I love about boxed text is the box. I guess a bullet point list would achieve the same thing, but I would not find it as aesthetically pleasing or intuitive given my 30 years of conditioning.

That said, I may not end up reading it aloud or I may end up modifying it on the fly - but I appreciate that it is there. When I do read it, if is in an encounter room, I read it after the encounter - having given a bare bones assessment of the room to the PCs before the encounter, the boxed text helps me describe the room once they've had a chance to have a good look around.

However, when I write my own adventures I don't write boxed text! I don't need it. I know what the scene is supposed to be and do and based on a bullet list I can describe it on the fly. But if it were someone else's bullet list I don't think I'd find it as easy.
 

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